Gas Mine ATF question

[PyroFL]

Been reading for a couple of days and I can not seem to find the answer.

I’ve even emailed a few people and no one really knows.

I purchased 4 two gallon mines for this year show which is themed FIRE

I have 7 fire machines which is classed as stage effect so you don’t need a 54

My question is if you’re doing gas mines do you need to have your 54 or is this seen as a stage effect?

[Salutecake]

Well that's a good question, lol. So no license to purchase gasoline, and no license needed to purchase the powder. hmmmm

[PyroFL]

That was our thought when my brother asked the other day when we were fusing up mortars.

But you know how there are rules for rules.

Spent a good amount of time on ATF website the last couple of days and not really finding anything.

I guess I could call and ask what the rule is for setting off Nukes?

:rolleyes:

LOL

[displayfireworks1]

When you say your purchase 4 two gallon mines what do you mean? Do you mean your purchased metal mortars to make gasoline fireballs? Or is this some other product?

[PyroFL]

Dave

There 24” tall 6” steal tubes that are used to make gas mines/nuke/fireball.

6603

[displayfireworks1]

You are making a gasoline fireball. Don't call the ATF , there is no need. I assume this is for a not in commerce use. This is something your making for your own use . A very similar analogy to this and an ATF license would be Tannerite. Take Tannerite and a regular Joe buying it at a sporting good store that does not have an ATF license. He can mix it up and shoot it for his own enjoyment as long as he mixes it at the range same day use. What he can not do is mix it up and store it . He also can not mix it at home, leave his property and drive to the range with it mixed. Not because it is potentially dangerous , it because you need an ATF license to transport it when mixed. He can mix it at home and I can put it in my car and drive it to the range ( because I'm licensed). Problem is once we get to the range I can not give it back to him because he does not have an ATF license. Are you confused yet? LOL
You can make explosives for your own use without a license and not in commerce. but you must understand the storage , selling and transportation principals that go with that. The ATF is always trying to connect it to commerce. For example a farmer blast a well open for water, the water in turn feed the cows and he sells the milk, he needs an ATF license.

[PyroFL]

That’s great news I didn’t just waste $428

Nothing commercial here, just pyro families celebrating Independence Day.

Thanks Dave

[PG2159]

Where did you buy them from? Or did you just have a local metal shop fabricate something up?

[displayfireworks1]

Our pyro friend Bill C and his gasoline fireballs created a whole new pyro sector and market with the gasoline fireballs. Prior to Bill C everything was those Cremora fireballs. Now Cremora is out , it is all gasoline. You can even purchase the necessary hardware. Now we need someone to create and market a easy to assemble lift charge cartridge that you just add black powder and E-Match to. That cartridge needs to correspond to the metal mortar size . I believe I know who is making these and Hey give me a call !!
.
Curious does that metal mortar you purchase have something at the inner base to tie off the wire on the lift charge to prevent it from floating? I have one of these in storage from years ago. An engineer out of Ohio that followed my videos made one for me and dropped it off when I was at one of the Kellner demos. I thought it was so creative , he welded a 3/4 cut metal nut to the bottom inner base to wrap the ematch wire around to hold the lift charge. If I remember correctly he also spot welded the inner side with a mark on the inner wall for the proper water level. When I find time i'm going to dig it out and get some pictures to see if it is as I remember. Development wise , he made it too small. To have the desire effect you need to get these gasoline mortars up in size. Just ask the Hollywood special effect guys.
.
.
Back to you calling the ATF about these devices. If you really want a correct and binding answer from the ATF , do not call them . You need to write them. They have a specific way to do this. For example when MJG created the non regulated "Initiators" (Don't say Igniter) he wrote the ATF and in turn received a written response. We and the entire industry now enjoy the benefits of his written response.
.
My video from 10 years ago (2013). I now have it unlisted , but you can view it here with this link. . The origins of the gasoline fireball mine 2013 and Bill C .
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGz_jBKg0tU

[PyroFL]

Where did you buy them from? Or did you just have a local metal shop fabricate something up?

Unfortunately, they’re not an advertiser on this website so I can’t disclose that information.

[PyroFL]

Dave,

The tube does have a hook on the bottom to zip tie to.

With calling them was a my attempt at making a joke

Calling and asking about setting off a nuke as in uranium 235

I will email you now the guys website if you would like to speak with him.

I’ve seen a few others made before and this is the best constructed one I’ve ever seen.

[displayfireworks1]

I need companies in the business to sign onto pyrotalk to promote their products and help me continue to run the website. The companies currently signed get exclusive rights to market their products on the forums. I'm looking to add some special effect , articles of pyro manufactures , distributors etc. if you are in the business , there is growing group of advanced pyro enthusiast that want to see what you have to offer.

[topshelfpyro]

Well that's a good question, lol. and no license needed to purchase the powder. hmmmm
Less than 50# you mean..........

[topshelfpyro]

That was our thought when my brother asked the other day when we were fusing up mortars.

But you know how there are rules for rules.

Spent a good amount of time on ATF website the last couple of days and not really finding anything.

I guess I could call and ask what the rule is for setting off Nukes?

:rolleyes:

LOL

I'm sure you are aware to use real 2FA black powder and a pinch of titanium sponge or spherical titanium in your charges.......also water in the bottom unless you like setting fire to things around the tube......

It is in the 2022 orange book for distances for the audience from fuel mines depending on the gallons held.....

[PyroFL]

Yes
Yes
Yes Sir
Yip just ordered a 5 gallon blue water tank

On the Distance, no I have not as I don’t own the book. Would this be the book you get when you sign up for the PGI class? If so am in the middle of trying to signup for a class in your state with a display company, I asked to have them ship me the book so I could read it before the class and was told they only hand them out in class only.

When you have a moment could you tell me what the distance is supposed to be for 2 gallons from the orange book?

Because of the effect I’m trying to do am way aways from everyone at 165’ at the moment. Next year I would like to move them a lot closer.

9B = 9 3” on a board
Yellow box = 50 shot single racks
Purple rectangle = slice cakes
Green rectangle = fireworks board
Red box = fire machine
Blue circle = PAR light

6604

[PyroFL]

I know Dave at some point had the Orange book here on this website (just clink the link below - video) but I’ve never seen the link. Maybe he couldn’t give it away for free anymore ?

[displayfireworks1]

At Topshelfpyro
.
Here is the Federal Explosive Law and Regulations AKA "Orange Book". Curious what page you are reading that references what you are describing with these gas fireballs ?
.
.
https://www.pyrotalk.com/pdf/2012-BATFE-orange-book-web.pdf

[PyroFL]

Taken me a moment to find it. It’s been a few years …

Here is your video/page https://www.pyrotalk.com/free-atf-orange-book-on-pyrotalk-com.php

No link on the page


Topshelfpyro was saying in the 2022 Orange book.

The link you sent is from 2012, maybe it was updated?

[Arclight]

I recommend dipping your finished burst charge in some Bondo fiberglass resin or similar product and letting it dry for maximum liquid resistance.

[displayfireworks1]

This is what I mean when I said in the past I clear up a lot of misconceptions getting people licensed when people profess what the ATF says or doesn't say or what "They told me" or "My State" . Now we are confusing what is written in the ATF "Orange Book" and/or the year of publication with gasoline fireballs. It confuses fireworks enthusiast and those attempting licensure.

[BMoore]

I think people are conflating the Orange Book with NFPA Regulations. I think the last version of the ATF Orange Book was 2012 and the only distances you'll find in the Orange Book are storage distances. The distances for flamable effects are shown in NFPA 1126 and are as follows in terms of gallons:

Less than 5 Gallons - 75 feet
5-25 - 150 feet
25-50 - 200 feet
50-100 - 250 feet
100-200 - 300 feet
200-400 - 350 feet
Greater than 400 - 600 feet

[PyroFL]

Thank you BMoore

New notes for my notebook

[PyroFL]

@Arclight

I will be using boat epoxy that I have at the house.

Thanks!

[displayfireworks1]

I recommend dipping your finished burst charge in some Bondo fiberglass resin or similar product and letting it dry for maximum liquid resistance.

I was refencing there is room for development for someone to create a ready to go product for this application. To where all you need to do is to add the black powder and metal burst charge into a cartridge. With the non-regulated MJG Initiators ( Don't say Igniter) you may be able to build those right into the product and sell them. Most of the time I see people building these lift bottles on site and day off on the shoot site. There have been failures with leaks into the bottles. Now you have to figure out what the next step is when the bottle fails. I have seen people dip their hand into the gas and disconnect the bottle , then reach down and tie off a new one.
.
A good point of discussion would be "What to do when the lift charge fails"

[PyroFL]

I was refencing there is room for development for someone to create a ready to go product for this application. To where all you need to do is to add the black powder and metal burst charge into a cartridge. With the non-regulated MJG Initiators ( Don't say Igniter) you may be able to build those right into the product and sell them. Most of the time I see people building these lift bottles on site and day off on the shoot site. There have been failures with leaks into the bottles. Now you have to figure out what the next step is when the bottle fails. I have seen people dip their hand into the gas and disconnect the bottle , then reach down and tie off a new one.
.
A good point of discussion would be "What to do when the lift charge fails"

Great point Dave

I've spoken to a few guys about this very same thing and your correct, bottles do leak, tape leaks, bags leak and a online product would be great!

My plan, yes is overkill but I only do one show per year and can't risk it.

PET bottle, with the initiator epoxy in, epoxy lid after loaded about 1" past the lid, zip lock plastic bag, tape, zip lock plastic bag, tap and done.

This way I have backup for backup with another 2 backups of protection.

I rather take 3-4 times longer to do it so I know for a fact its not going to leak and not have to worry IF it's going to work.

Discussion point "What to do when the lift charge fails"

My answer would be to take the time to do it correct the first time and you will not have to worry

[topshelfpyro]

At Topshelfpyro
.
Here is the Federal Explosive Law and Regulations AKA "Orange Book". Curious what page you are reading that references what you are describing with these gas fireballs ?
.
.
https://www.pyrotalk.com/pdf/2012-BATFE-orange-book-web.pdf

LOL. Dam I said orange book.....I meant NFPA now has some guidelines for distances......
14 hour work schedules play with the mind

[PyroWalker]

Great point Dave

I've spoken to a few guys about this very same thing and your correct, bottles do leak, tape leaks, bags leak and a online product would be great!

My plan, yes is overkill but I only do one show per year and can't risk it.

PET bottle, with the initiator epoxy in, epoxy lid after loaded about 1" past the lid, zip lock plastic bag, tape, zip lock plastic bag, tap and done.

This way I have backup for backup with another 2 backups of protection.

I rather take 3-4 times longer to do it so I know for a fact its not going to leak and not have to worry IF it's going to work.

Discussion point "What to do when the lift charge fails"

My answer would be to take the time to do it correct the first time and you will not have to worry

I actually had 2 lift charges fail in my small fuel mines last night! After the show, one of the professionals that came to my show was able to get one to fire by using a more powerful charge through the MJG. The other one did not fire at all. I removed the lift charge and was surprised to find the powder was dry! We expected that a wet charge was the problem, but it wasn't. My only guess was a bad batch of MJG's, which is possible, because I had the most failures ever in my show last night. I had over 20 things not fire (Cakes, Pro mines, Pro slices, Pro comets), and the only commonality was the MJG's.

[PyroFL]

I had that same problem 2 years ago. We had around 20+ items not fire.

If you still have the boxes contact the company. Look for the blue stamp on the inside, they will need that number when you call.

[jdels]

I actually had 2 lift charges fail in my small fuel mines last night! After the show, one of the professionals that came to my show was able to get one to fire by using a more powerful charge through the MJG. The other one did not fire at all. I removed the lift charge and was surprised to find the powder was dry! We expected that a wet charge was the problem, but it wasn't. My only guess was a bad batch of MJG's, which is possible, because I had the most failures ever in my show last night. I had over 20 things not fire (Cakes, Pro mines, Pro slices, Pro comets), and the only commonality was the MJG's.

Having switched this year from the Chinese versions that sure makes me a bit nervous. Did the MJG fail to pop or was there not enough fire to light the effect?

[morrison2951]

Agreed. I'm using all MJG this year again.

All went well in last year's show with them.

[PyroWalker]

Having switched this year from the Chinese versions that sure makes me a bit nervous. Did the MJG fail to pop or was there not enough fire to light the effect?

I am pretty sure they failed to pop. I pulled everything that didn't fire into one area of storage and I will investigate this week. Since I don't have any help with my shows, I just finished cleaning up the backyard this morning. The consensus amongst everyone who was at the show and works with fireworks is that the MJG's were bad. I am going to inspect them and the older ones I have to see if I can notice anything about them. They were all purchased from Cobra, but honestly, I just have them stored in big tubs and I pull from whatever box/size I need at the time, so I probably won't be able to tell any differences.....

[Salutecake]

I believe the distanced are the same as the nfpa as listed in the PGI course book.