Sound system experts - need some education please

[ssmith512]

OK, getting ready for my first "big time" 4th show that includes music with the fireworks. I've educated myself to the point I am able to hook the laptop up to the mixer, the mixer to the speakers and I get good music (am I good or what?!?! LOL!). BUT, I do not have a complete understanding of how to set the level/input/gain knobs so that I am provided with the loudest, cleanest possible sound that does not clip or overdrive the speakers and damage them. My setup is as follows:

laptop plays the music (mono track) and feeds input into channel 5 of the Yamaha MG06 mixer. XLR cable out of mixer to QSC 12.2 speaker.

My soundtrack was created in Audacity. I normalized the track so all songs are roughly the same "volume" across the entire track.

On the Yamaha mixer I set the white LEVEL 5/6 knob to the little triangle mark. With the speakers turned off, I start my soundtrack and slowly start turning the RED knob on the mixer clockwise until the LED PEAK meter above the red knob kinda hovers around the 0 level for the majority of the soundtrack, with the occasional "loud beat" peaking at the +3 level. Now I believe I have the mixer output set to the best possible "max output". The QSC speaker also has an "input gain" knob that can be set from OFF to 0dB to a max of +2dB. In order to get the loudest, cleanest sound, should I leave the QSC gain knob at the 0dB setting, since I set the mixer output to peak at roughly 0 on the LED peak meter?

Is this all correct to get the sound system setup so that when it is show time, everything is set to the right level (for maximum volume)? If I feel the music is too loud once playing, all I need to do is reduce the RED knob on the mixer?

Thanks in advance!

Steve

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[PyroFL]

Hey Dave,

I have almost the same setup and not a easy answer do X to get Y.

To know the true answer you would need to know the level the music was recorded at. Most newer mix/tracks are mixed at +4 older mix were at +0.

Without out getting to crazy and deep into this and to make sure you don’t blow your new $800 speaker.

I would set the speaker on Dance in the menu, put at 85%-90% of max volume and control the volume on your mixer as needed.

I think you will be shocked at how much head room you will have and it will do the job.

I would put the speaker out about 20’ to 25’ feet

Tested this speaker a few weeks ago at the house and was shocked how clean it was and got 124db at 22’

[ssmith512]

Who's Dave? LOL!

Thanks for the input. I can tell you that in Audacity I normalized soundtrack so the max peak amplitude is -3dB across all tracks.

When you say "put at 85%-90% of max volume", do you mean set the input gain knob on the back of the speaker to roughly the 3:30pm position (close to the 10dB max level setting)?

Thanks!

[PyroFL]

Steve****

Not Dave ... LOL ... just finished reading Dave’s comment about when to start fusing and had Dave stuck in my head I guess

[PyroFL]

Correct!

There is watts and RMS. The speaker is 2,000 watts but the true output is 1,000 non-distorted. To play it safe and even when I used to mix for bands we never max it out for 2 reason, one over heating the amp and frying it and 2 if you max out it starts to distorts

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Steve--you have a pretty good understanding of how/what to do.
The gain [white knob] on the top of the channel is not a volume control--it limits the amount of signal coming into the channel to prevent distortion [overdriving] of the channel electronics. If you get a distorted input, there isn't anything that can be done to fix it! As you said, run your signal into the channel until you see it clip, then back it off a little bit. An occasional blink of the red LED is ok.
Set your channel EQ's [low & high] at 12 O clock. This is flat-no cut or boost. Most sloppy sound is caused by "over-eq'ing" on the channel strip & these small mixers take a big cut or boost at their center frequencies [100Hz & 10Khz respectively].
You will be surprised at the solid low end punch these speakers have.
Any other questions, just ask.

One thing to remember in turn on/turn off sequence--ALWAYS turn your mixer on BEFORE your speakers, and turn your speakers OFF before your mixer. This eliminates a "thump' which can cause damage to the speakers.
Set the output level between 12 & 3 O clock for a starting point.
The QSC's have more power than imagine. Once you have the signal where you want it turn the QSC's up to around 12 Oclock.and start from there.
To PyroFl---the newer speakers use a class D power supply technology that doesn't draw near the amount of current the older powered speakers do--so they don't have as severe an issue with overheating as the older speakers. Also, the gain knob on the speakers is an input attenuator--limiting the amount of signal into the processing electronics in the speaker amplifier circuitry--not a volume control.


And , yes, use the master mix output [red knob] on the mixer to pull back on the overall volume if necessary.
When setting up the speakers, they should be up at least at "head height" of the audience--with the horn above the people's heads.
You didn't mention the size of your audience area, or approximate number of people you will have for your show, so I can't comment directly about speaker placement without that info.
Any other questions, just ask.

[PyroFL]

Joe,

100% agree with your input.

....

Wasn’t going to get to technical about the attenuator variable knob that uses a IC processor to control the level.

Just keeping it KISS

[ssmith512]

Thanks friends!! I appreciate the info and education!

[SystemXpert]

I have almost the exact same setup. Same Mixer...but I have a pair Of C-CHAiN powered speakers. My question is. Your feeding into channel 5 L/mono. And you have an XLR out of the mixer going to your QSC 12.2 speaker. Is the XLR cable out coming from the Left side or Right side. Are you using more than one QSC speaker?

My C-Chain powered Main speaker has a single XLR input and I am thinking of doing the same thing.

[ssmith512]

Multiple speakers.

XLR out of the mixer is plugged into the left speaker output of the mixer.

Keep in mind my soundtrack is mixed down to mono (it is not stereo), so I dont think it matters if my speakers are plugged into the L or R speaker output on the mixer.

I am running 1 XLR cable out from the mixer to the first speaker. Then 1 XLR out of the first speaker to the next speaker. Then 1 XLR out of that speaker to the next speaker, speakers are daisy chained from one to the next.

Hope this helps!

[SystemXpert]

Multiple speakers.

XLR out of the mixer is plugged into the left speaker output of the mixer.

Keep in mind my soundtrack is mixed down to mono (it is not stereo), so I dont think it matters if my speakers are plugged into the L or R speaker output on the mixer.

I am running 1 XLR cable out from the mixer to the first speaker. Then 1 XLR out of the first speaker to the next speaker. Then 1 XLR out of that speaker to the next speaker, speakers are daisy chained from one to the next.

Hope this helps!

Yes..it does...thanks! This is my first big show too!

[ssmith512]

Yes..it does...thanks! This is my first big show too!

Good luck!! I'll be rooting for ya! :D

[WithReport]

On a related topic I have a question out of curiosity as some have mentioned they use mono tracks. I use audacity and when creating a mono file from stereo, I typically use Tracks > Mix > Mix Stereo Down To Mono function.

It's never sounds as good as stereo. I'm assuming that with a mono track you no longer have phase differences between left and right so mono doesn't sound as "big". But it works.

I realized there is also each stereo track there is a Split Stereo Track and Split Stereo to Mono option. I tried the Split Stereo to Mono and it doesn't seem to be much different than the Mix Stereo Down To Mono function.


Any best practices or suggestions on improving the sound on a mono track?

[R. Derrick]

On a related topic I have a question out of curiosity as some have mentioned they use mono tracks. I use audacity and when creating a mono file from stereo, I typically use Tracks > Mix > Mix Stereo Down To Mono function.

It's never sounds as good as stereo. I'm assuming that with a mono track you no longer have phase differences between left and right so mono doesn't sound as "big". But it works.

I realized there is also each stereo track there is a Split Stereo Track and Split Stereo to Mono option. I tried the Split Stereo to Mono and it doesn't seem to be much different than the Mix Stereo Down To Mono function.


Any best practices or suggestions on improving the sound on a mono track?

I thought of this same thing - so I'm glad someone else asked too. I've been following a lot of this and being new, it's overwhelming. This is my first pyromusical and I have no experience with sound other than plugging things up and a little familiarity with RMS/Peak but not much more. My research hasn't shown me the answer to this, so I didn't think it would matter much.

I do believe that the "fullness" that you're looking for comes from a L and R audio track with your brain being able to interpret the sound from the direction of which it comes. I wonder if this would fall under psychoacoustic juxtapositioning (Joe had mentioned that in another thread somewhere). But I feel like the general audience might not notice a difference of stereo vs mono, too much stimuli?

But I do wonder who uses Stereo. The reason why I didn't is that I don't understand how a stereo sound can be used while using only 1 input. I'm using Cobra Show creator on the computer, and the right channel goes to SMPTE and my Left goes to my sound system (which I'm still figuing out). I wasn't able to hear some percussion or horns on a song that I was scripting and I thought it was just the song I downloaded. Still could have been user error but that was my experience.

I hope you find your answer :)

[WithReport]

I do believe that the "fullness" that you're looking for comes from a L and R audio track with your brain being able to interpret the sound from the direction of which it comes. I wonder if this would fall under psychoacoustic juxtapositioning (Joe had mentioned that in another thread somewhere). But I feel like the general audience might not notice a difference of stereo vs mono, too much stimuli?


Yep, I figure the same thing - what I was trying to explain as phase differences between L and R. And agree most may not notice the difference during the show between mono and stereo.

Regarding who uses stereo. My fireTEK Remote has an internal audio player or you can play audio through a connected android device and app - although you can run timecode similar to your Cobra approach, I've always just used a stereo track on two 15" powered speakers to a fairly small viewing area and it's worked fine. But I'm curious how one might keep the best sound with mono.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

The "perception" of stereo sound is difficult to achieve in the real world of outdoor pyro musicals.
When I did concert sound "back in the day" for a lot of top name Country & Christian artists, we did our final mix to the house system in Mono. Sometimes the stage monitors were spec'd to be stereo pairs--[artist being quirky]..but 85% of the time they were mono also.
In order to achieve a true stereo mix outdoors [or in an indoor venue also] it would require DOUBLE the equipment [at the very least]. Each side of the stage would have a Left & Right stack of speakers..the left side would be panned hard left with about 20% right feeding it, and the right side would be panned hard right with about 20% left feeding it. That way, no matter how far to one side or the other you are positioned, you hear all of the sound with the perception of a stereo image.
This requires double the amount of speakers & cables, power amplifiers, equalizers, compressors, etc......
In larger indoor venues that were very wide, the speakers would be flown overhead in alternating stereo sets--L&R, L&R, L&R, L&R...that way, you would be between a left & right speaker anywhere [even though the L&R might be reversed in physical placement--people never noticed it.]

I recently provided a small sound system for a retail fireworks store product demo and there was a small pyro musical afterwards. I've done this event for several years with no issues----but this year the person that usually mixed & scripted the music passed it on to another person to do the audio track. This person, being a musician, finalized the audio track in stereo.
Well, the issue was that the sound system was set up to provide sound to a listening area on both sides of a large pole barn & kitchen area. So, the speakers were set on both sides of the building facing 180 degrees along the sides of the building to basically provide a 360 degree "donut" around the building. ----not out in front where the building would block 40% of the sound. Needless to say, the people on the right side of the building heard SOME of the music, and the people on the left heard SOME of the music--but none of them heard ALL of the music. Unfortunately, there was nothing that could be done to rectify the issue since the sound check was just before the demo. Using a "Y" cord would have been a "sort of" fix if it was discovered earlier, but that creates a mess of phase cancellation--that is why it is best to mix down to MONO for your track.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but there is no quick way to answer the question.
Stereo is great with ear buds [headphones for us old guys],or in your car or at home with the TV but put 200 or 20,000 people outside and it is an issue.
PS--"Back in the day"---the WHO & their Quadraphenia Tour had speakers in all four corners of the venue & had a custom mixing console built to do 4 channel live sound! That was something to experience!!!

Also, R. Derrick---you should not have lost any horns or percussion in the mix down....that would only happen if recording the original sound with two mikes out of phase which is sometimes done in live recordings to get more gain before feedback for the house sound system]. Combining two out of phase signals would cause a reduction in sound level of that instrument.
I hope this helps.

[R. Derrick]

Also, R. Derrick---you should not have lost any horns or percussion in the mix down....that would only happen if recording the original sound with two mikes out of phase which is sometimes done in live recordings to get more gain before feedback for the house sound system]. Combining two out of phase signals would cause a reduction in sound level of that instrument.
I hope this helps.


After reading everything again and then your reply, I may need to do something different - gonna test a few things; however, once I mixed it down to mono, I had all sounds and nothing was lost. It was prior to mixing down from stereo to mono that I lost those sounds. Sorry if I wasn't clear in the beginning - or heck, I may not be understanding now lol.

I appreciate all of the feedback you offer on this site, Joe.

[WithReport]

The "perception" of stereo sound is difficult to achieve in the real world of outdoor pyro musicals.....
.
.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but there is no quick way to answer the question.
Stereo is great with ear buds [headphones for us old guys],or in your car or at home with the TV but put 200 or 20,000 people outside and it is an issue.
I hope this helps.

No apology needed and the information was quite interesting - Thank you.

I recall back in the 90s while living in Eastern Europe, running into a family that had a room in their apartment just dedicated to a sound system - not music. Wood floor, open room, two straight back chairs, and speakers in 4 corners and the audio controls. I don't recall what the specific of the system was, but I do recall they had some flat speakers hanging in frames in the mix - some of it looked custom made. It was quite the unexpected setup in a former communist bloc apartment just a year or so after the communist party collapsed. Anyways, you would sit in that room with your eyes closed and listen to the audio and it was one of the most incredible experiences.

But I'm not after anything like that for a pyromusical outside in they yard. We have used stereo in the past. The speakers are really only about 40ft apart and a fairly compact group of viewers (still about 200 people).

But I am curious if there are any tricks to mixing a stereo track down to a good mono track. As mentioned in my previous post, I just simply used some of the functions in Audacity, but I wonder. Would it be better to compress or normalize the L and R tracks first? Do I want to center any DC offset first, or ???.

In the image attached, from top to bottom, it is Left, Right, and then the Mixed Mono track. The mono track certainly has less dynamics in this segment.


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I don't know that I have anything to complain about, I'm just curious if there are any best practices out there when combining L&R to mono.



P.S. I'm using over the ear headphones, so yeah, it sounds pretty good now. What is an ear bud? ;) Sounds like some sort of growth that should be clipped.

[Engineer Cat]

Fantastic explanation Joe. When you do live sound and recordings those things are obvious to us because we learned it years ago. I know a few musicians who can't setup a simple soundboard and get signals running through it properly even thought they can understand the signal routing from guitar, to peddle to 12 more peddles to amps. Don't even mention the word bussing to them. They think that means their going on tour. LMAO

Congrats to Smith and Derrick for learning how to add audio to your shows. Once you do, you will never do another show without it.

I've been playing, mixing, recording, engineering music since 1995. Started getting into pyro 10 years ago and it's not until 2018 where I started adding music to the shows and mostly just because there was music playing in the background. As a recording engineer I should of picked up on this sooner. lol Now when my friends ask if I can setup and shoot a show for them the first thing I do is find a song. Then I send them the list of fireworks they should buy so I can script it. :D

[Engineer Cat]

But I am curious if there are any tricks to mixing a stereo track down to a good mono track. As mentioned in my previous post, I just simply used some of the functions in Audacity, but I wonder. Would it be better to compress or normalize the L and R tracks first? Do I want to center any DC offset first, or ???.

In the image attached, from top to bottom, it is Left, Right, and then the Mixed Mono track. The mono track certainly has less dynamics in this segment.

You shouldn't need to compress or normalize a song that has already been mastered.

Check this out. I think you will find this helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7M1vi2DFQ

[WithReport]

You shouldn't need to compress or normalize a song that has already been mastered.

Check this out. I think you will find this helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7M1vi2DFQ

Thanks. That video was educational for me.

Regarding being mastered. I typically combine a number of songs into one file. sometimes there is some overlap of the songs and I add some sound effects to the full soundtrack. So I typically normalize it all when done. I'll also go in and manually remove some of the "spikes" that are being clipped. I'll admit I'm just a novice at all the audio mixing, I pound through it and it's seemed to turn out OK for what we've done, but certainly appreciate the tips and information others are sharing.

Shameless Plug Alert :o : I have to say, last year I was quite pleased with the timing of some sound effects I added. Here is a link to a few seconds before a number of wheels spin down. I had added the sound of roller bearings spinning down to the sound track (no this was not added after the fact) and the timing turned out great with the wheels. It was just a little thing and I don't think most peopled even noticed, but I was stoked at the timing during the show.

https://youtu.be/6znkkiYg4b8?t=177

[Engineer Cat]

Shameless Plug Alert :o : I have to say, last year I was quite pleased with the timing of some sound effects I added. Here is a link to a few seconds before a number of wheels spin down. I had added the sound of roller bearings spinning down to the sound track (no this was not added after the fact) and the timing turned out great with the wheels. It was just a little thing and I don't think most peopled even noticed, but I was stoked at the timing during the show.

https://youtu.be/6znkkiYg4b8?t=177

That sound effect did fit perfectly. Now you got my brain thinking. lol