Your Opinions on Milk Crate Racks and How to Use Them Properly?

[chetubet]

I was thinking of building a 25 HDPE tube rack using the milk crate method this year. I've heard mixed opinions on the subject and I'm curious what some of you guys think. Is it generally safe to use canisters? what about salute cans? Any input appreciated!

[rfgonzo]

My opinion, it's asking for trouble. If you do use them make sure you have a solid piece of wood on the inside bottom.

[psilynt]

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/showthread.php?6099-Milk-Crate-Mortar-Racks

At the roughly 20m25s mark in the first youtube link, you can see a milk crate rack erupt tubes in all directions. He says there was nothing in the bottom, just tubes in a crate when it happened. Even with something in the bottom I'm still not convinced they're "safe" ...

[PyroKing31]

I have been using 6x crates with 25x tubes for 3 seasons. 4 shows per season without issue. I use 3/4 ply on the bottom and have shot everything from the weakest fake ball shells to the burliest OL Canister shells without issue.

Now, i must state I have NOT had a CATO in this setup and I personally feel that they are rare as I'm about 1,500 shells into firing without one. Small to some but a lot to others.

For me its not any less safe than a wood rack and its a lot smaller/lighter etc. People will argue that a wood rack is safer, but unless they are built with spacers between tubes, they are just as much at risk with a CATO and tubes flying as a Milk Crate.

You absolutely 100% need wood on the bottom to prevent bouncing. DO NOT do this without it.

I believe Rick_In_Tampa also uses Crates with years of success.

[upNdown]

I'm convinced they're completely safe with a hunk of wood in the bottom. Unless one blows in the tube. Then you could have trouble on your hands. But I'm thinking that most of the other racks setups I see could fail miserably if one blows in a tube too. I've been thinking about this, and I wonder if tying all the tubes together with some big metal strips (like a giant hose clamp thingy?) would help keep all the tubes pointing up, even if a shell blew in the tube and blew off the side of the crate. Like top, bottom, and maybe middle too?

[chetubet]

I'm convinced they're completely safe with a hunk of wood in the bottom. Unless one blows in the tube. Then you could have trouble on your hands. But I'm thinking that most of the other racks setups I see could fail miserably if one blows in a tube too. I've been thinking about this, and I wonder if tying all the tubes together with some big metal strips (like a giant hose clamp thingy?) would help keep all the tubes pointing up, even if a shell blew in the tube and blew off the side of the crate. Like top, bottom, and maybe middle too?

I think I might try tying all the tube together with a couple of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071L1TBLP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[upNdown]

I've actually got zip ties on mine. I'm just wondering if they're strong enough in case of disaster. Maybe?

[Mattp]

There is definitely mixed opinions about this ... personally I use them for the finale .. and smaller racks throughout .. 3/4 ply in the bottom.. never had a problem!! ... also distance is important .. so if there was a Cato .. it’ll be far enough away from people

[upNdown]

There is definitely mixed opinions about this ... personally I use them for the finale .. and smaller racks throughout .. 3/4 ply in the bottom.. never had a problem!! ... also distance is important .. so if there was a Cato .. it’ll be far enough away from people

That's a big point that I didn't mention. I don't have the distance - my crowd is generally about half as far away as they should be. So I'm constantly looking for belt and suspenders solutions.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I do use milkcrate "racks" for my finale. Never had an issue until last year when 3 tubes jumped out of 1 crate. Turns out the plywood base I used was weak in the area under that particular crate. This year I have new plywood platforms they're going to sit on, and I ran 3 or 4 wraps of grey speed-tape around the tops of the tubes to try and eliminate any wiggle room in the crate. Hopefully that keeps everything in and I don't have a repeat of last years ejection issue.

[Arclight]

I do use milkcrate "racks" for my finale. Never had an issue until last year when 3 tubes jumped out of 1 crate. Turns out the plywood base I used was weak in the area under that particular crate. This year I have new plywood platforms they're going to sit on, and I ran 3 or 4 wraps of grey speed-tape around the tops of the tubes to try and eliminate any wiggle room in the crate. Hopefully that keeps everything in and I don't have a repeat of last years ejection issue.

What about tying the tubes into bundles inside the crate using fiberglass-reinforced packing tape?

[joewad]

Even being left handed and geometrically challenged I am able to measure and cut a 12x12 inch piece of 3/8's inch plywood. I place 2 together in the bottom of my crates sealed together with good ole liquid nails. No problems at all with 20 crates. I've made some wooden ones in the beginning but now don't.

[chetubet]

Even being left handed and geometrically challenged I am able to measure and cut a 12x12 inch piece of 3/8's inch plywood. I place 2 together in the bottom of my crates sealed together with good ole liquid nails. No problems at all with 20 crates. I've made some wooden ones in the beginning but now don't.

Do you seal the piece of wood to the create?

[PyroKing31]

Do you seal the piece of wood to the create?

I use 3/4" ply and I do not seal it to the crate. The weight of the wood and tubes keeps it down.

[chetubet]

I use 3/4" ply and I do not seal it to the crate. The weight of the wood and tubes keeps it down.

Thanks, yea I'm using a 3/4'' piece of ply and tested out the MCR last night. It held together nicely...my fusing on the other hand is another story. I gotta figure out to to keep the fuse from jumping.

[chetubet]

HA! This is funny... So my MCR help up nicely but everything else about my test run last night failed... including the filming..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaaWHj95_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaaWHj95_M
At least you can hear some nice booms and a kid crying in the back ground who wasn't ready for the salutes.

So I guess after my first shell the sparks jumped to my 4 finale cans that were fast fused... FAIL

[DavidthePyro]

Did you cover the fuse with some tape to protect it from ignition

[chetubet]

Did you cover the fuse with some tape to protect it from ignition

I did using Dave's magic tape... guess I didn't use enough for there was a bit of fuse exposed. I may try wrapping up in tinfoil next time.

[DavidthePyro]

I dont worry about a good seal necessarily, but I just adequately cover around fuse with masking tape, it works well for MCR's so Dave's tape should work fine. The underside of the fuse is pretty important to cover. If you cover it too well, especially with Dave's magic tape, you may end up with a faster firing rack, the seal will speed up the fuse a bit, at least in my experience. Cover it, but not tightly is my recommendation

[PyroKing31]

I loosely cover all my exposed fuse with magic tape. run it along and loosely close it over.

[joewad]

Do you seal the piece of wood to the create?

I do NOT attach the piece of wood to the bottom of the crate. Usually, its a very snug fit if cut close to dimensions of crate. I've found a 12x12 with a little extra is very snug. I also cover fuse with magic tape, sometimes foil and I have found 30 second per foot fuse or even a bit slower makes for a nice pace and not a sky puke. And the slower fuse is less prone to side or fallout ignition.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I usually cover my crates with a sheet of foil to prevent any pre-ignition issues during the show. This year in addition to placing my crates on a wooden platform AND having wood at the bottom of each crate, I also wrapped about 4-5 runs of high speed tape around the tops of the tubes to try and take up any lateral slack and prevent a tube from bouncing free. Probably not necessary, but it didn't cost anything extra to try, so...

[Tdd123]

I'm not as active as some, so I apologize if this has come up before...but does anyone else use wooden wine case racks? I stumbled across making some a couple of years ago and have never had any issues at all (not a huge sample size but it does seem quite sturdy). Makes a really easy 4x3 fan with the 1.75 inch tubes from 60g can kits. I just top off the case with sand when I'm setting up. I guess its probably best for those that shoot from the beach but I was curious if anyone has tried this and had any issues.

[RoosterWalt]

I got the fireproof expanding sealer (that spray foam stuff) and "glued" all my tubes in place. It seems to hold all the tubes in place really well on the finale crates and the racks. Good luck Saturday folks!

[Birdman]

After reading this thread I decided to wrap each row of 5 tubes in duct tape and then around the top of the entire rack. I use plywood on the bottom. The rack was rock solid and the tape still smooth after the show. I figure if there was any bouncing it would have pulled on the tape and it would have rips or creases. Looked just like it did before the show....only empty.

[PyroDre]

i use don't wood in the bottom.. wood adds to the bounce especially after it warps being exposed to weather. I use zip ties to secure them together. i've never had a problem.. and I've shot 1.3 out of them.

[AquaticPyro]

There is definitely mixed opinions about this ... personally I use them for the finale .. and smaller racks throughout .. 3/4 ply in the bottom.. never had a problem!! ... also distance is important .. so if there was a Cato .. it?ll be far enough away from people

I used a single one as part of my finale. I found using zip ties the best way to fuse when using them. I used various shells and burn time fusing to make it semi-random and last a little while while still being intense. Racks can break too. Always preload ahead so you an take you time and double check every shell. I fused in groups of three and fused each group together. This also alerts you if any fuse is not the same length when loaded to the bottom.

[AquaticPyro]

I have never had any tube bounce upward? The physics seems odd since it should be pushing downward with equal and opposite force to the shell. It is basic physics. It can only bounce if not fully inserted.

[BMoore]

I have never had any tube bounce upward? The physics seems odd since it should be pushing downward with equal and opposite force to the shell. It is basic physics. It can only bounce if not fully inserted.

Tubes can definitely bounce and fly through the air, but this is AFTER the shell is already in the air. Ever fired a gun? When do you feel the recoil? It's after the shell is gone from the barrel or forget ever hitting a target. Since the mass of the mortar and it's support is greater than that of the shell the transfer of force on the mortar side is much slower. For this reason I will use milk crate racks only for single shots rather than fused shots. That way if I have a failure it's most likely that the offending shell will be performing normally and I won't have lit shells on the ground. I have NEVER heard of a lift charge causing a mortar to bounce or fall over causing the shell to shoot horizontally. If that could happen then the average consumer sitting artillery shell mortars on the grass with no stabilization would have some serious issues.

[jamisonlm3]

It can happen. Here's (https://youtu.be/UyU1D60HTZ0?t=1224) a video of it.

[joewad]

It can happen. Here's (https://youtu.be/UyU1D60HTZ0?t=1224) a video of it.

That's from Bazerk's first fireworks extravoganza. And if you were following him and his efforts, like me, he stated that this was before he placed wood in the bottom and since then, with wood, no problem.

[BMoore]

It can happen. Here's (https://youtu.be/UyU1D60HTZ0?t=1224) a video of it.

That video proves my point. From what I can tell those mortars are bouncing out all over the place but it looks to me like all the shells went up. I see nothing going horizontal. It's certainly possible that one flying tube could dislodge another with a lit shell in it causing a horizontal firing, but I don't see that happening here. That possiblility is why I only use MCR's for single shots, not finales or flights. Sure, something can always go wrong but that's where your distances come into play.

[jamisonlm3]

I hope Bazerk doesn't mind this. If he doesn't, I take this down. I took the portion of his video showing the milk crate rack shooting and slowed it down to 5fps so we could see a little bit better of what's going on. Look for the time fuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V-ARcaunNU

[BMoore]

Hard to tell but I still see all the shells going up. Nothing horizontal. The danger here is that since it’s a fused rack one flying tube can dislocate other tubes before the shell fires. For each mortar the sequence of action is: 1) shell leaves mortar 2) Mortar recoils 3) Surface absorbs recoil and/or pushes back on the mortar 3) Mortar bounces up. Think about the average consumer putting an unstabilized mortar on the ground. As long as they don’t knock it over the shell is going up. That mortar doesn’t move until the shell is gone.

[AxeElf]

Hard to tell but I still see all the shells going up. Nothing horizontal. The danger here is that since it’s a fused rack one flying tube can dislocate other tubes before the shell fires. For each mortar the sequence of action is: 1) shell leaves mortar 2) Mortar recoils 3) Surface absorbs recoil and/or pushes back on the mortar 3) Mortar bounces up. Think about the average consumer putting an unstabilized mortar on the ground. As long as they don’t knock it over the shell is going up. That mortar doesn’t move until the shell is gone.

That much is true, but the danger with a milk crate is that it won't just be one tube recoiling after the mortar has left the tube; it will be all the tubes sitting on the plastic (elastic) base of the milk crate that will be forced upwards when the base bounces back--some of them may still contain lit shells. That's why those who use them advise using a solid piece of plywood on the base of the milk crate under the tubes--to help increase the rigidity of the base and reduce that trampoline effect.

[BMoore]

That much is true, but the danger with a milk crate is that it won't just be one tube recoiling after the mortar has left the tube; it will be all the tubes sitting on the plastic (elastic) base of the milk crate that will be forced upwards when the base bounces back--some of them may still contain lit shells. That's why those who use them advise using a solid piece of plywood on the base of the milk crate under the tubes--to help increase the rigidity of the base and reduce that trampoline effect.

I don’t disagree which is why I’ve said light the shells individually rather than fused. That way if one tube bounces out the others the shells on the ground are not lit. I don’t really use MCR’s anymore but I still have them. All have plywood on the bottoms. I have never had an issue but I would not trust them with fused shells.

[Pyrosaat]

I glue my tubes with Gorilla glue to a piece of 3/4" wood at the bottom of the crate. With enough glue, the tubes don't move!

[FWGuy]

Have avoided using milk crates as felt racks are generally more stable and secure in the event of a blowout. If built properly, I believe the racks with the plywood rail lowers could absorb or deaden a blowout...may be wishful thinking on my part but for me its the safer route. The racks are more work and will make your back cry, but way to go for me.

[esgrillo]

to the original topic on this thread, I would have to say that milk crates should be reserved for carrying milk.

[joeld1212]

Milk crate racks are great! Lighter, simpler, safer than a wooden rack. Fits 25 mortars snugly
and with 3/4" plywood in the bottom there is no bouncing or rocking. Very stable.

I've used milk crates for 30 years. Bought a few wooden racks 10 years ago, mainly from
reading how "safe" they were on forums like this one. In all that time I've had one incident.
Three years ago one of the wooden racks tipped over during a show. Shot shells straight
at the crowd. Of course I had plenty of distance between my display and the crowd so no
damage done.

I immediately retired the wooden racks. Have since used them in my fire pit.

[jamisonlm3]

What caused the rack to tip over?

[Rick_In_Tampa]

In all honesty I think milk crate racks are easier to manage and people predisposed to doing what's easy (like me!) are going to use them despite the added risk. Again, in all honesty, an accident can happen with wood racks just as easily as with milk crate racks. Unless someone does a scientific study on the safety of one option over the other, my guess is we're not going to change anyone's mind in here. I just hope that as more "advanced" pyros, we all take the steps necessary to ensure our spectators safety is never put in jeopardy as a result of our desire to do what is easy.

[FWGuy]

Joel D and Rick...appreciate and respect your points regarding Milk vs Wood racks. If their is a blowout with either it wont be pretty either way...but with proper spectator distancing the risks are drastically reduced. Don't get me wrong, I do very much like the idea of Milk crates...lighter, easier to assemble/rack, more tubes/shots per sqft...may give it a go.

[jamisonlm3]

This is the only video I've seen of one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLAK0A_ahTI

[DavidthePyro]

I used MCR's for the first time this year. 175 of my 600 shells were shot out of milk crates, i had one tube that did pop out and go a distance, but I'm more disappointed in fuse timing than anything. I had it down to a science and got some really good results by trimming back excess of shells, then I had 3 people help me fuse racks this year. Let's just say that the finale shells were the only ones that went up as expected.

[DavidthePyro]

So to make my point, Milk Crates are worth it if you have the safety clearance

[joeld1212]

What caused the rack to tip over?

I still don't know. Apparently, wooden racks bounce like some on here say milk crates do.
This rack was purchased from a well-respected on-line vendor. It had a large footprint and
still it tipped. Obviously less stable than a milk crate rack.

And, just as obviously, it would take 2 wooden racks to put up as many shells at a time as
a milk crate rack; unless you're into two-manning your wooden racks.

[Rocketshooter]

I've been using milk crate racks for at least a dozen years now without any issues. The video of the tubes jumping out was interesting but I have never experienced this.
My MCRs have a 3/4" plywood base w/strapping tape for reinforcement. Also, I have both HDPE tubes as well as recycled fiberglass. Never an issue.

[jamisonlm3]

I still don't know. Apparently, wooden racks bounce like some on here say milk crates do.
This rack was purchased from a well-respected on-line vendor. It had a large footprint and
still it tipped. Obviously less stable than a milk crate rack.

And, just as obviously, it would take 2 wooden racks to put up as many shells at a time as
a milk crate rack; unless you're into two-manning your wooden racks.It wouldn't surprise me. There's so much variety between wooden racks built for consumer shells. Sadly, most seem to be built from 1x pine boards and drywall screws. Basically, the bare minimum to hold the mortars at 90. Who'd you buy your rack from? I'd be interested in trying to find pictures of racks built by the seller you got your's from.

[joeld1212]

It wouldn't surprise me. There's so much variety between wooden racks built for consumer shells. Sadly, most seem to be built from 1x pine boards and drywall screws. Basically, the bare minimum to hold the mortars at 90. Who'd you buy your rack from? I'd be interested in trying to find pictures of racks built by the seller you got your's from.

I'd rather not say. I don't want to hurt this vendors business.

[TheClevelandPyro]

Besides the ease of mobility, I don't really see a reason to use MCR's as wooden racks are cheap and easy to build.