Speaker Recommendations for Audiobox

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I'm picking up an Audiobox this year and I don't have a clue what kind of speakers would work well with it. These will only be used once a year during my July 4th show, so I don't need top of the line Bose speakers. But I'd like something that's going to do justice to the music too.

Can anyone recommend a decent pair of speakers??

[cherrybomb1]

I have Niles RS85I speakers on my patio, there a little pricey but the sound is worth it.On my pool deck i have Definitive Technology AW6500.They also sound good.Ive got a pair of Bose 251 sitting in the attic somewhere.I wasn't real impressed with them.Don't you still need a audio system connected to your Audiobox?.

[esgrillo]

Rick, in my opinion you need a very powerful amp and DJ speakers if you really want to be able to hear anything in a reasonable fashion. This is especially true if your audience is spread out in a fairly large area as is the case with me. Once the fireworks get going they are so loud in most circumstances they over power the music very easily. I started with a 100w/channel home receiver as my power going to a set of DJ speakers w/12" passive woofers. It was inadequate in my opinion.

I changed to an amp that provides about 550w/channel at 8 ohms using the same speakers. I also added a pre-amp in between the audiobox and the amp. I have found with experience this is a must at least in my case. The signal from the audiobox needs to be raised before you get to the amp if you want the most out of your system. I found that out the hard way.

I did not spend a ton of money on any of this and got most of the equipment on eBay. Yeah you get what you pay for but considering I only use it 1 or 2 times a year I felt I could take a chance and not get audiophile quality hardware. You still fight the sound of the fireworks so worrying about zero distortion rate is honestly a waste of time in my opinion. What you need is it to be very loud and reasonably clear. Especially if you are going to script to the music because you will spend a ton of time getting your effects timed perfectly to the music and you want that work to pay off with people being able to hear it.

If you want a list of what I use, let me know, I'll send it to you.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Rick
Here are a couple things for you to look at:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB215D
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX1202FX
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MUPSS7730
You would also need a couple heavy duty microphone cords & AC power cords to each speaker & the mixer.
I highly recommend zzounds.com . I have done business with them for years & they have a "no interest payment plan" that makes getting equipment very affordable.
I know several people that have these powered speakers and they all are very satisfied with them.
The down side is that you will have almost $1,000.00 invested in a system that you will only use once or twice a year.
Another alternative would be to see if you have a local band that would not be playing when your event is & see if you could rent their sound system for the day==and invite them to the display.
You can find lots of used stuff on Craigs List--but you would need to know what you were looking for & also buying used equipment from a band usually means the stuff will have been "well used".

Dave--if it is not ok to post the zzounds.com reference for audio equipment, feel free to delete it: Since they have nothing to do with pyro I didn't think it would be an issue.

[WithReport]

I used an old Crate PA-4 mixer/amp and speakers. You can find the whole kit or similar for cheap. (https://reverb.com/item/5041474-super-cheap-crate-pa-4-head-speakers-full-pa-system-very-portable-small-loud-gig). Mine was actually free - it was my son's and someone in a band gave it to him. Anyway it worked great for our small show of 100+ people.

I like the idea of borrowing from a band and inviting them to the show.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I have Niles RS85I speakers on my patio, there a little pricey but the sound is worth it.On my pool deck i have Definitive Technology AW6500.They also sound good.Ive got a pair of Bose 251 sitting in the attic somewhere.I wasn't real impressed with them.Don't you still need a audio system connected to your Audiobox?.

Thanks for the recommendations. As for needing an audio system, my understanding is you can just plug in a pair of speakers and you're done. So that was my going in plan.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick, in my opinion you need a very powerful amp and DJ speakers if you really want to be able to hear anything in a reasonable fashion. This is especially true if your audience is spread out in a fairly large area as is the case with me. Once the fireworks get going they are so loud in most circumstances they over power the music very easily. I started with a 100w/channel home receiver as my power going to a set of DJ speakers w/12" passive woofers. It was inadequate in my opinion.

I changed to an amp that provides about 550w/channel at 8 ohms using the same speakers. I also added a pre-amp in between the audiobox and the amp. I have found with experience this is a must at least in my case. The signal from the audiobox needs to be raised before you get to the amp if you want the most out of your system. I found that out the hard way.

I did not spend a ton of money on any of this and got most of the equipment on eBay. Yeah you get what you pay for but considering I only use it 1 or 2 times a year I felt I could take a chance and not get audiophile quality hardware. You still fight the sound of the fireworks so worrying about zero distortion rate is honestly a waste of time in my opinion. What you need is it to be very loud and reasonably clear. Especially if you are going to script to the music because you will spend a ton of time getting your effects timed perfectly to the music and you want that work to pay off with people being able to hear it.

If you want a list of what I use, let me know, I'll send it to you.

Ed - Thanks so much for that info! My audience sits in our "common area" which is basically a single lot between two houses. Not very big at all. I'd say maybe 100' wide. So blasting a long way isn't a requirement. However, I had planned on putting the Audiobox and speakers down in the retention pond (my shoot site) and face them towards the crowd. Sounds like I'd be better off putting them in the common area with the audience instead and away from the fireworks.

Definitely be interested in getting a list of equipment if it's not a bother.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick
Here are a couple things for you to look at:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB215D
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX1202FX
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MUPSS7730
You would also need a couple heavy duty microphone cords & AC power cords to each speaker & the mixer.
I highly recommend zzounds.com . I have done business with them for years & they have a "no interest payment plan" that makes getting equipment very affordable.
I know several people that have these powered speakers and they all are very satisfied with them.
The down side is that you will have almost $1,000.00 invested in a system that you will only use once or twice a year.
Another alternative would be to see if you have a local band that would not be playing when your event is & see if you could rent their sound system for the day==and invite them to the display.
You can find lots of used stuff on Craigs List--but you would need to know what you were looking for & also buying used equipment from a band usually means the stuff will have been "well used".

Dave--if it is not ok to post the zzounds.com reference for audio equipment, feel free to delete it: Since they have nothing to do with pyro I didn't think it would be an issue.

OMG... I think my brain is bleeding. I appreciate the info Joe. I don't know a think about mixers though. What is that for? I thought I could plug the speakers directly into the Audiobox. No?

I don't mind spending the money if it's going to do the job right the first time. What I DON'T want to do is blow money on something that doesn't work, and then MORE money to get something that does work. So even though I'm a music equipment moron, I do appreciate the recommendations. I'll have to get spun up on what everything does. Those speakers are no joke! 50lbs each!? Wow... I hope my wife can handle them. :o

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I used an old Crate PA-4 mixer/amp and speakers. You can find the whole kit or similar for cheap. (https://reverb.com/item/5041474-super-cheap-crate-pa-4-head-speakers-full-pa-system-very-portable-small-loud-gig). Mine was actually free - it was my son's and someone in a band gave it to him. Anyway it worked great for our small show of 100+ people.

I like the idea of borrowing from a band and inviting them to the show.

Thanks for the reply WR. Yes... Borrowing from a band is a great idea. I happen to know a guy who's in a band. So I'm definitely going to float that idea. However, since I hate relying on other people, I'm likely going to spend the $$ and get my own equipment anyway. Free is a great price! I can afford that all day long. But I'm guessing I'll need to pay, so cheap is good too. Lol. Thanks for the link!

[WithReport]

If you go the amplifier route, be aware of the cable differences. I purchased a Y splitter from full 1/8" TRS Stereo to 1/4" TS Balanced output to run the audio from the FireTek remote to two amp channels.

https://www.amazon.com/GLS-Audio-Y-Cable-Splitter-Cord/dp/B0064P4F88

However, I think the Cobra Audio Box has many output options.

This last year, I had the Speakers and the Pyro HQ sitting on the ground back behind everyone (The whole pyromusical was a surprise). They said it was plenty loud, but the camera was also behind the speakers, too. and didn't pick the sound up real well. However, next year I'm going to have the speakers out in front of the audience and slightly raised off the ground, too.

During set-up the first thing I set up was the PA system. Then the music was playing all morning while I wired everything up.

[esgrillo]

Ed - Thanks so much for that info! My audience sits in our "common area" which is basically a single lot between two houses. Not very big at all. I'd say maybe 100' wide. So blasting a long way isn't a requirement. However, I had planned on putting the Audiobox and speakers down in the retention pond (my shoot site) and face them towards the crowd. Sounds like I'd be better off putting them in the common area with the audience instead and away from the fireworks.

Definitely be interested in getting a list of equipment if it's not a bother.

Speakers $168
https://www.ebay.com/p/Acoustic-Audio-Cr12-PA-Karaoke-DJ-12-Speaker-Pair-1000-Watts-3-Way-Cr12-pr/691143010

Amp $139
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Channel-4500-Watts-Professional-Power-DJ-Amplifier-2U-Rack-Mount-Mixer-Stereo-/201536761371?hash=item2eec86ee1b:g:HBsAAMXQPd1RHCh v

Speaker Wire (need 2 of these) total $70
http://www.ebay.com/itm/500ft-In-Wall-16-2-16-AWG-Gauge-2-Conductor-Speaker-Wire-Cable-CL2-Bulk-500ft-/121839854268?epid=1972757798&hash=item1c5e38a2bc:g:Yi8AAOSw1S9We7Hj

Preamp
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BYNGUME/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Cable to connect amp to pre-amp - $7


After looking at pyrojoes list, maybe his preamp selection is better, same price, looks like more features. The one I have works good for me since I had my neighbor get the same exact sound set up as this for his yard and the preamp acts as a 4 way splitter too so I can get the signal to his amp as well without much fanfare. The single audiobox is fed to two separate sound systems in the 2 yards that are about 150ft apart.

[esgrillo]

Ed - Thanks so much for that info! My audience sits in our "common area" which is basically a single lot between two houses. Not very big at all. I'd say maybe 100' wide. So blasting a long way isn't a requirement. However, I had planned on putting the Audiobox and speakers down in the retention pond (my shoot site) and face them towards the crowd. Sounds like I'd be better off putting them in the common area with the audience instead and away from the fireworks.

Definitely be interested in getting a list of equipment if it's not a bother.

cable to connect preamp to amp
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068O17/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[esgrillo]

OMG... I think my brain is bleeding. I appreciate the info Joe. I don't know a think about mixers though. What is that for? I thought I could plug the speakers directly into the Audiobox. No?

I don't mind spending the money if it's going to do the job right the first time. What I DON'T want to do is blow money on something that doesn't work, and then MORE money to get something that does work. So even though I'm a music equipment moron, I do appreciate the recommendations. I'll have to get spun up on what everything does. Those speakers are no joke! 50lbs each!? Wow... I hope my wife can handle them. :o

Rick to answer for Joe, I am sure he is just using that mixing board as a pre amp. You have to use a pre amp to get the signal input to your amp to an acceptable level from the Audiobox. If you plug in the audiobox directly to your amp (which can be done) the sound from your set up will not be nearly as loud as you need it. I tried without a preamp and it did not work for me. As I mentioned the relative positioning of my audience to the fireworks makes it a very loud environment that the sound system has to over come.

[esgrillo]

Ed - Thanks so much for that info! My audience sits in our "common area" which is basically a single lot between two houses. Not very big at all. I'd say maybe 100' wide. So blasting a long way isn't a requirement. However, I had planned on putting the Audiobox and speakers down in the retention pond (my shoot site) and face them towards the crowd. Sounds like I'd be better off putting them in the common area with the audience instead and away from the fireworks.

Definitely be interested in getting a list of equipment if it's not a bother.

Rick, here is how I have things laid out. The audiobox/amp location is a yellow box, the speakers are red boxes, the audience is red shaded, and the fireworks are yellow shaded. As a point of reference on scale, the yards are about 150ft wide

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2665&stc=1

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Rick & Ed:

Rick to answer for Joe, I am sure he is just using that mixing board as a pre amp. You have to use a pre amp to get the signal input to your amp to an acceptable level from the Audiobox
The mixer serves several purposes: it is there as a preamp for the speakers, but also allows you the ability to have an independent music source [mp3, phone, computer, etc] playing for pre-show without touching your settings for the AudioBox. It also lets you plug in a microphone for announcements Once it is there you will find that it gets used more than you would expect. "five minutes to show time--get your lawn chairs in place" --or whatever.

Also--to Ed---a 3.5mm [1/8" stereo] to 1/4" stereo cable does not give you two isolated inputs to a channel--unless the channel is wired for that. A 1/4" stereo input is typically a balanced low impedance signal--so you are actually only getting signal from the tip & grounding out the ring connection. What you would want is a 1/8" stereo to dual 1/4" patch cord feeding a left & right channel input on your preamp [or mixer].
Wiring can get "sketchy"----tying a left & right mono signal together with a "Y" cord causes a big dip in sound quality [phase cancellation]. You can hear what this does just by unplugging one of the inputs while the music is playing & plug it back in. Huge muddy mess [mostly in the mid range frequencies].
I don't want to come of as a "know it all"--but I am a retired audio engineer, have owned my own regional touring sound company & installation business, have done sound for many national artists,and have been in the audio field since 1965. I'm here to help.

[Pyro Paul]

Wow Joe, I was only being born in 1965... dang you're older than dirt, probably knew Moses when you were growing up!! :p

(sorry had to do it) ;)

[esgrillo]

Rick & Ed:

The mixer serves several purposes: it is there as a preamp for the speakers, but also allows you the ability to have an independent music source [mp3, phone, computer, etc] playing for pre-show without touching your settings for the AudioBox. It also lets you plug in a microphone for announcements Once it is there you will find that it gets used more than you would expect. "five minutes to show time--get your lawn chairs in place" --or whatever.

Also--to Ed---a 3.5mm [1/8" stereo] to 1/4" stereo cable does not give you two isolated inputs to a channel--unless the channel is wired for that. A 1/4" stereo input is typically a balanced low impedance signal--so you are actually only getting signal from the tip & grounding out the ring connection. What you would want is a 1/8" stereo to dual 1/4" patch cord feeding a left & right channel input on your preamp [or mixer].
Wiring can get "sketchy"----tying a left & right mono signal together with a "Y" cord causes a big dip in sound quality [phase cancellation]. You can hear what this does just by unplugging one of the inputs while the music is playing & plug it back in. Huge muddy mess [mostly in the mid range frequencies].
I don't want to come of as a "know it all"--but I am a retired audio engineer, have owned my own regional touring sound company & installation business, have done sound for many national artists,and have been in the audio field since 1965. I'm here to help.

Joe -

Thanks for the input. I am taking the RCA from the audiobox direct to the input of the preamp. The pream output is also RCA and I use a RCA to 1/4 direct to the 2 inputs on the amp. I am not using any 1/8 to 1/4".

If your set up offers advantages over that Im all ears. Always looking to improve if it does not cost an arm and a leg. For all my pre show audio I am using my home stereo which connects via wifi to my phone running a jukebox app and spotify so people can add any song they like to the playlist queue with their phones too. (I still have master control to prevent crap from being played lol) I have one of the amp zones on the receiver dedicated to the speakers on my back porch. Its pretty cool, people really get a kick out of it so I just use the PA system for the show itself.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick, here is how I have things laid out. The audiobox/amp location is a yellow box, the speakers are red boxes, the audience is red shaded, and the fireworks are yellow shaded. As a point of reference on scale, the yards are about 150ft wide

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2665&stc=1

Wow... So you have the speakers literally right in among the crowd. See I was thinking that would be too close so I planned on setting them out in the retention pond by the fireworks. I might have to reevaluate that now.

Here's a picture of my shoot site. I doctored it up with the same color code system you used. (No... I wasn't trying to make a smiley face!) The retention pond is something like 330' by 600'. There is about a 4' berm all around the pond. The crowd stands/sits in the area outlined in red among the trees and playground equipment.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2666&stc=1

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joe -

Thanks for the input. I am taking the RCA from the audiobox direct to the input of the preamp. The pream output is also RCA and I use a RCA to 1/4 direct to the 2 inputs on the amp. I am not using any 1/8 to 1/4".

If your set up offers advantages over that Im all ears. Always looking to improve if it does not cost an arm and a leg. For all my pre show audio I am using my home stereo which connects via wifi to my phone running a jukebox app and spotify so people can add any song they like to the playlist queue with their phones too. (I still have master control to prevent crap from being played lol) I have one of the amp zones on the receiver dedicated to the speakers on my back porch. Its pretty cool, people really get a kick out of it so I just use the PA system for the show itself.

Ed & Joe - Holy crap... Both of you guys are light years ahead of me when it comes to this stuff. I just recently turned in my IPhone 4 because none of my apps could be updated anymore because the phone was so old! I'm STILL trying to figure out how to work this IPhone 7 POS I have now. I'm a low-tech guy in a high tech world. So it's going to take probably the next 6 months to process all of this info. Great stuff though! I actually think I understand what you're both saying at the 50K foot level. Going to take some time to get down into the weeds though. I've got 10 months to figure it out! :confused:

[Rick_In_Tampa]

cable to connect preamp to amp
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000068O17/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Uggg... I can't view the EBay items from work (they block access to EBay) but you gave me a link to an "amp" and a "Pre-Amp." If I understand the jargon correctly, the "pre-amp" is (or does) the same thing as the "mixer" Joe sent me, yes? So logically I would *assume* the "amp" is a device to amplify the power going to the speakers, yes? If so I'm again guessing that the reason I would need an amp with the speakers you (Ed) are recommending is because they are not powered like the set Joe is recommending. That would make sense to me.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick & Ed:The mixer serves several purposes: it is there as a preamp for the speakers, but also allows you the ability to have an independent music source [mp3, phone, computer, etc] playing for pre-show without touching your settings for the AudioBox.

THAT is a really attractive feature to me!! Something to occupy the crowd while I'm getting ready, and doesn't create the potential to screw up my Audiobox script!!

[cherrybomb1]

Hey Rick,Check out Monoprice.com.They have about everything you could need with great prices.

[esgrillo]

Wow... So you have the speakers literally right in among the crowd. See I was thinking that would be too close so I planned on setting them out in the retention pond by the fireworks. I might have to reevaluate that now.

Here's a picture of my shoot site. I doctored it up with the same color code system you used. (No... I wasn't trying to make a smiley face!) The retention pond is something like 330' by 600'. There is about a 4' berm all around the pond. The crowd stands/sits in the area outlined in red among the trees and playground equipment.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2666&stc=1

Rick, yes I do. Until you make a scripted pyromusical show, you really have no idea how loud you need the music to be for people to hear it. I can assure you I checked with people in the audience in previous years if they can hear the music and with all my previous set ups people really cant hear much. This past year was the first time (not kidding) that people said they could hear the music and tell that the show was timed to it. Even this past year I was walking around the speakers during the show just checking things out and it was not overly loud. If I could have got more out of the amp, I would have raised the volume more but I had the amp and pre amp pegged.

It looks like you have your audience pretty close the fireworks too so I think you will be in the same boat as me. Also, yes the amp I have is needed because my speakers are passive (non powered) Joe has powered ones so he does not need the amp. He knows what he is talking about better than me so for sure but thats the reason for the difference in the set ups.

Learn your phone dude lol. I swear I do just about everything on my iPhone 7 lol. Bank, remote ops for my car, refill prescriptions, track the kids, run all my home A/V and car audio, operate my Comcast Infinity devices, access all my business files via onedrive, all photography stuff, workout tracker, all kind of travel activities, etc etc etc. I sure would not want to lose it lol.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Hey Rick,Check out Monoprice.com.They have about everything you could need with great prices.

Thanks CB! I'll give them a look.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick, yes I do. Until you make a scripted pyromusical show, you really have no idea how loud you need the music to be for people to hear it. I can assure you I checked with people in the audience in previous years if they can hear the music and with all my previous set ups people really cant hear much. This past year was the first time (not kidding) that people said they could hear the music and tell that the show was timed to it. Even this past year I was walking around the speakers during the show just checking things out and it was not overly loud. If I could have got more out of the amp, I would have raised the volume more but I had the amp and pre amp pegged.

It looks like you have your audience pretty close the fireworks too so I think you will be in the same boat as me. Also, yes the amp I have is needed because my speakers are passive (non powered) Joe has powered ones so he does not need the amp. He knows what he is talking about better than me so for sure but thats the reason for the difference in the set ups.

Learn your phone dude lol. I swear I do just about everything on my iPhone 7 lol. Bank, remote ops for my car, refill prescriptions, track the kids, run all my home A/V and car audio, operate my Comcast Infinity devices, access all my business files via onedrive, all photography stuff, workout tracker, all kind of travel activities, etc etc etc. I sure would not want to lose it lol.

In my best Tim Taylor voice, is sounds like more power is the way to go! There's really no point in taking the time to script a pyro musical if the audience can't hear the music. Looks like I'm going with the powered speaker setup! Thanks for sharing your real world experience. Like you suggested, unless you've been there and done that, you're really just guessing.

As for my phone... It's crazy. I bought a Cadillac last October. There's an app for it. An app. For a damn car! I downloaded it when I got my new IPhone 7 just to see what it's all about. I can unlock and lock the doors with it. I can start and shut off the car with it. I can even get a GPS map thing that tells me where the car is. I think it also gives me the tire pressure. Now I ask you.... Why in the world do I need an app on my phone to start my car or tell me where it is? If I go outside and my car is gone, the app won't bring it back to me! I tell ya.... I just don't get all these widgets. I do like the banking app though. I like not having to drive to the bank every week to deposit checks. The Weather Channel app is also nice so I can get a radar view to see if I'm going to get rained on. Beyond that, I don't think there's anything else I can't live without.

[topshelfpyro]

Peavey DM112........

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Okay gang... I bought the Behringer system along with the pre-amp that PyroJoeNEPA recommended. I finally had a chance to try and hook everything up today and failed miserably. Looks like I bought at least one wrong cable. So I'm looking for some help here.

I have the Cobra Audio box connected to the XENYX 1202FX pre-amp with an RCA to 1/4 jack cable. I have no idea which ports to use on the pre-amp, but there are 4 sets of ports labeled "In" so I'm guessing it doesn't matter. Yes? No??
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2796&stc=1

I connected the speakers to one another with a MIC cable that has a male connector on one end, and a female connector on the other. So the "out" connector on one speaker is feeding the "in" connector on the other speaker. I assume this is correct.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2798&stc=1

The problem is I have nothing to connect the pre-amp to the speakers. The only other cable I have is another MIC cable with a male and female end that won't connect to anything.

So do I remove the cable connecting the speakers to each other and run two separate 1/4" jack cables between the pre-amp L/R out ports to each speaker from the "Main Out" section of the pre-amp? Or do I run one 1/4" jack cable from the "FX Send" port on the pre-amp to the 1/4" jack cable on the one speaker, and let it feed the other speaker??

The line diagram that came with the pre-amp seems to suggest I can use any 1/4" Out jack to feed the speakers. Does that sound right??

I am soooo confused.

[Pyro@Mach13]

Joe can correct me, but I think you need a 1/4 inch TRS to Dual 1/4 inch TS Insert Cable to go from the L & R Main Out =to the 1/4" Input on one of the speakers. Use the "Mic" cable you have already to connect the 2 speakers. Joe will this cause Phase cancellation?

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-STP-204-inch-Insert-Cable/dp/B000068O1O/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1514590682&sr=8-8&keywords=1%2F4%22%2BTRS%2Bto%2B1%2F4%22%2Bmono&th=1


Other than that 1/4" Main Out L to one speaker and 1/4" Main Out R to the other speaker. That will give you a stereo feed.


The FX out is for sending to an effects device... you do not use that for the speakers.

[Pyro@Mach13]

Joe can correct me, but I think you need a 1/4 inch TRS to Dual 1/4 inch TS Insert Cable to go from the L & R Main Out =to the 1/4" Input on one of the speakers. Use the "Mic" cable you have already to connect the 2 speakers. Joe will this cause Phase cancellation?

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-STP-204-inch-Insert-Cable/dp/B000068O1O/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1514590682&sr=8-8&keywords=1%2F4%22%2BTRS%2Bto%2B1%2F4%22%2Bmono&th=1


Other than that 1/4" Main Out L to one speaker and 1/4" Main Out R to the other speaker. That will give you a stereo feed.


The FX out is for sending to an effects device... you do not use that for the speakers.


Ignore my first suggestion, that will not work.

I do not see a mono bridge mode in that mixer so your best option is to use the Main Out L & R and feed each speaker separately with a 1/4" cable if you want a stereo feed.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joe can correct me, but I think you need a 1/4 inch TRS to Dual 1/4 inch TS Insert Cable to go from the L & R Main Out =to the 1/4" Input on one of the speakers. Use the "Mic" cable you have already to connect the 2 speakers. Joe will this cause Phase cancellation?

https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-STP-204-inch-Insert-Cable/dp/B000068O1O/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1514590682&sr=8-8&keywords=1%2F4%22%2BTRS%2Bto%2B1%2F4%22%2Bmono&th=1


Other than that 1/4" Main Out L to one speaker and 1/4" Main Out R to the other speaker. That will give you a stereo feed.


The FX out is for sending to an effects device... you do not use that for the speakers.

Thanks for the reply Pyro@Mach13. If I go for the "stereo feed" option, if this a good cable?

https://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTAT690?siid=84458

[Pyro@Mach13]

Thanks for the reply Pyro@Mach13. If I go for the "stereo feed" option, if this a good cable?

https://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTAT690?siid=84458

It is 14 Gauge so that looks decent, yes. 12 Gauge is better but more money for sure. Let Joe chime in on this. I use 12 gauge on my setup, I made my own cables.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

It is 14 Gauge so that looks decent, yes. 12 Gauge is better but more money for sure. Let Joe chime in on this. I use 12 gauge on my setup, I made my own cables.

Ahhh. Okay. If 12 gauge is better I'll look for that then. TY!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

How about this one? It's 12 gauge. It also says "Intended for high-current applications only, not line-level signals." Not sure if that means it will work with my speakers or not.

https://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSSKJC?siid=89802

[Pyro@Mach13]

That is good, but expensive....


Joe, where art thou?

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Rick--call me--I will talk you thru it. Sorry I didn't see your post sooner.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

how about this one? It's 12 gauge. It also says "intended for high-current applications only, not line-level signals." not sure if that means it will work with my speakers or not.

https://www.zzounds.com/item--hosskjc?siid=89802


no--will not work!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Rick--I see the problem: The 1202 mixer only has 1/4" TRS outputs to go to the speakers--the 1204 model has the XLR [mike] connectors to go to the speakers. The cable end at the mixer needs to be a 1/4" TRS plug. That cable would go to the first speaker, then the other mike cable would Both of the cables I told you to get have the XLR connectors. The fix is easy--you need an adapter that plugs from the mixer output to the mike cord going to the first speaker.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2799&stc=1


https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIAN423
or this in a 1 1/2ft cable: https://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSHSX
I have a bunch of the adapters. I can sendone out to you on tuesday. PM me your shipping address.
Sorry I didn't spot that when we were going over the equipment specs!

[Pyro@Mach13]

see, good to have the master chime in... Joe you are the man!

[Pyro@Mach13]

Joe the main outs on his mixer are unbalanced mono. Why can he not use a 1/4" TS cable running a single line to each speaker. TS is for unbalanced mono.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Joe the main outs on his mixer are unbalanced mono. Why can he not use a 1/4" TS cable running a single line to each speaker. TS is for unbalanced mono.
Frank--the output is 1/4" TRS unbalanced 120 ohms with a max headroom of +22dbu. By using the tip & ring to carry the audio the signal is still isolated from any RF or hum or noise by the shield. Even though it is not a diferential or transformer balanced output the shielding factor is still there. Using a TS unbalanced cable allows rf or noise or hum to pass on the shielded side [sleeve] of the cable to the audio path. It also acts like a big antenna laying on the ground going to the first speaker.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2802&stc=1
Screen shot from the owners manual PDF.
Very good question that you brought up. Many people are unaware of balanced/unbalanced wiring configurations and the pitfalls that may befall them if the wrong cable is used.

[Pyro@Mach13]

So even though the Main out is mono unbalanced the third wire helps reduce noise. How is that with only a mono unbalanced feed? Is not that mono feed just a ground and hot?

The more I read up on balanced unbalanced the more I get confused. haha

With the way you mentioned for him to use that TRS to XLR adapter, would he come out of the left Main Channel for that at mono?

My mixer has a mono bride mode and I come out of that and feed the first speaker, out from that over to the second speaker. I do use just a 2 wire TS plug with 12 gauge speaker wire. I have been lucky with no noise. I better switch to a couple xlr "mic" cables, I have them (100 footers). I thought the heavier gauge wire would be better for less signal lose.....

Joe, you should do up some video lessons, they would be a big hit! Wish we where neighbors, I have a decent recording setup at the house. I use it for another hobby of mine (a game called Munzee).

[PyroJoeNEPA]

So even though the Main out is mono unbalanced the third wire helps reduce noise. How is that with only a mono unbalanced feed? Is not that mono feed just a ground and hot?
Here's a drawing that I found in a reference manual---it may not be the circuitry used in the Behringer mixer---I would need to see one of their "top secret" schematics to say for sure--but the principle is the same--It is a "quasi-balanced" ergo--unbalanced circuit--where there may be a differential between the op amp halves compared to a transformer "perfect" balanced output:Why they call it "unbalanced" I do not know---

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2806&stc=1
and here is a true balanced circuit=== notice the leveling resistors between the two outputs:
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2807&stc=1


My mixer has a mono bride mode and I come out of that and feed the first speaker, out from that over to the second speaker. I do use just a 2 wire TS plug with 12 gauge speaker wire. I have been lucky with no noise. I better switch to a couple xlr "mic" cables, I have them (100 footers). I thought the heavier gauge wire would be better for less signal lose.....
If your output is 1/4" MONO the shielded mike cord would not help---what you want to do is use a short shielded 1/4" to 1/4" patch cord from the output to a direct box which will balance the line. From that you would run the mike cords and have 100% shielding all the way. Here is an inexpensive one:
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2808&stc=1
https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDI400P

If --for any reason--you wanted to run stereo [I never do it for pyro musicals] you could use this two channel DI with two lines from your mixer output:
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2809&stc=1

https://www.zzounds.com/item--DBXDJDI

As for the video lessons: "back in the day" a company in Long Island contracted me to develop and record a set of 8 VHS tapes [yeah--that long ago-VHS tapes!!!] called "Sound Advice for Houses of Worship" as a training aid for churches to help train their [mostly volunteer and um-knowledgeable] sound crew. I didn't get "famous" or rich from it but I did hear back that it helped a lot of people. That is very gratifying.

Yes, I wish we lived closer also! We would be lighting up the sky for sure! I remember the day we first met many years ago at Kellners demo & open shoot!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

OMG... I read everything you guys wrote a few times and I don't have a clue what you are saying.

Joe - I'll call you and hopefully you can dumb it down enough so it makes sense. If not, I'm boxing it up and sending it back! Lol....

[PyroJoeNEPA]

OMG... I read everything you guys wrote a few times and I don't have a clue what you are saying.

Joe - I'll call you and hopefully you can dumb it down enough so it makes sense. If not, I'm boxing it up and sending it back! Lol....

Don't panic Rick---everything will be fine. I'm sending a part out for you on Tuesday to fix you up. Don't worry about the "tech-babble"---I know how frustrating this stuff can be---but you don't need to understand the inner workings of the stuff--just how to get it to operate properly.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Great talking to you today Joe! Thanks so much for all the help. I feel much better now. :o

Try to stay warm up there! Looks like that global warming thing is catching up with us down here too. Just found out the wind chill tonight is going to be 28F. It could actually snow here tonight! That's insane.

[Pyro@Mach13]

Thanks Joe....

[Stormcrow]

Holy cow thanks for the save pyros. I was with rick I thought I could just plug into my audio box and be good.

[Stormcrow]

So now the real question how can I sell this to my wife that this equipment is for around the pool and not solely for my fireworks display.

[esgrillo]

Rick, I have upgraded to QSC K12.2 Active 12" speakers and a Yamaha MG10XU mixer/preamp. I'm going to test tomorrow so Ill let you know how they sound.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Ed--- the QSC K12.2's are excellent speakers. My church's youth group bought 6 of the older model--K-12's a couple years ago--4 for main system and 2 for monitors for use with their worship team & have traveled internationally with them. Flawless operation for several years. They are a little "pricey" but an excellent designed speaker system. I am sure you will be more than happy with them. I haven't had "hands on" with the Yamaha mixer, but I looked at the features on it and it will do everything [and more] that you will need. Also, it has the balanced XLR outputs on it so you won't have the mixup we had with Rick's wiring. Congrats on your new purchase and moving up to the pyro musical world and the joys [haha] of scripting!!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

So now the real question how can I sell this to my wife that this equipment is for around the pool and not solely for my fireworks display.
Good luck with that one!!! The key is having an "understanding" wife. Flowers, candy, dinner dates---ANY form of bribery you can think of is fair play! Let us know how it goes so we know that you are not in the hospital with a concussion! LOL.

[esgrillo]

Joe, thanks for the input. Question, on the Yamaha, I can go from the audiobox with RCA / RCA to inputs 5/6 or 7/8 on the Yamaha or I can use another cable I have RCA / 1/4" and go to input 1 and 2 with the left and right. Inputs 1 & 2 have more control options on the gain and has level meters on those inputs as well. I have tried both options and for input 1 & 2 I can keep the overall output level (bottom right red control knob) control pretty low and still have really big sound from the speakers. For the RCA to RCA I have to crank up the output level much much higher for the same volume level. I assume when I use the 1 & 2 option Im not running in stereo but really dont care much about that. Pretty sure the RCA RCA option maintains the stereo.

I think using inputs 1 & 2 is the better option for the audiobox. What do you think? I also may want to output my stereo to the Yamaha as well and may use the RCA stereo option for that input and use the QSC speakers to play music during my pre-show party.

[esgrillo]

2815

here's a pic of the Yamaha

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick, I have upgraded to QSC K12.2 Active 12" speakers and a Yamaha MG10XU mixer/preamp. I'm going to test tomorrow so Ill let you know how they sound.

That's awesome Ed! Congrats on the upgrade. Very much looking forward to hearing how they work for you.

Stupid question for you. Do you have the speakers facing the crowd or behind them? My initial thought was to have them face the crowd. But now I'm thinking it might be better if they were behind the crowd so they wouldn't be competing directly with the fireworks. What do you think?

[esgrillo]

That's awesome Ed! Congrats on the upgrade. Very much looking forward to hearing how they work for you.

Stupid question for you. Do you have the speakers facing the crowd or behind them? My initial thought was to have them face the crowd. But now I'm thinking it might be better if they were behind the crowd so they wouldn't be competing directly with the fireworks. What do you think?

I always have them face the audience. Someone may have another opinion but generally its easier to hear things in front of you. Closer the better.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Joe, thanks for the input. Question, on the Yamaha, I can go from the audiobox with RCA / RCA to inputs 5/6 or 7/8 on the Yamaha or I can use another cable I have RCA / 1/4" and go to input 1 and 2 with the left and right. Inputs 1 & 2 have more control options on the gain and has level meters on those inputs as well. I have tried both options and for input 1 & 2 I can keep the overall output level (bottom right red control knob) control pretty low and still have really big sound from the speakers. For the RCA to RCA I have to crank up the output level much much higher for the same volume level. I assume when I use the 1 & 2 option Im not running in stereo but really don't care much about that. Pretty sure the RCA RCA option maintains the stereo.

I think using inputs 1 & 2 is the better option for the audiobox. What do you think? I also may want to output my stereo to the Yamaha as well and may use the RCA stereo option for that input and use the QSC speakers to play music during my pre-show party.

Ed--you are correct. Ussing channels 1 & 2 give you more control of your audio--by having a mid range EQ control, and compressor on the channels as well as having a higher input gain. If you did want to go full stereo with the system, simply plug into channels 1 & 2--use the "pan" knob [red one] and turn ch 1 full to the left and ch 2 full to the right. Connect your speakers to the left & right outputs and you will be running true stereo. And you can use channel 5 & 6 ot 7 & 8 for your stereo system input---leave the pan pot there at 12 o'clock.
There isn't really ANY advantage to running stereo outside--if you run a mono signal everyone across your field of coverage will hear all of the music. eg: picture a song with a hard "left to right to left" in a drum solo---and you are at the extreme left [or right] of the coverage area---you won't hear everything that is going on. I can go into more detail, but I think this will give you the general idea why you should run mono with a small system. I hope this helps!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I always have them face the audience. Someone may have another opinion but generally its easier to hear things in front of you. Closer the better.

Sounds good to me! (No pun intended)

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Do you have the speakers facing the crowd or behind them? My initial thought was to have them face the crowd. But now I'm thinking it might be better if they were behind the crowd so they wouldn't be competing directly with the fireworks. What do you think?

Rick---put the speakers in front of the people --facing them--between them and the fireworks.
There is a term in the audio field "psychoacoustic juxtapositioning". That is a very big, official sounding term--I don't get to say it too often and I am SO GLAD you gave me the opportunity to use it here! LOL.
What it means is that you brain --via your eyes--synchronize things to what your brain processes via your ears....If the fireworks is in front of you it seems more "natural" to you than if the sound is coming from behind you. Also, in a pyro musical--your mind will not notice the differences in time [as well] if a shell shot or comet run isn't exactly in sync with the music.
An easy way to explain this is---if you went to a theater to see a movie and the sound was coming from behind you instead of from the screen-- your ears would be telling your eyes that "something was off".

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick---put the speakers in front of the people --facing them--between them and the fireworks.
There is a term in the audio field "psychoacoustic juxtapositioning". That is a very big, official sounding term--I don't get to say it too often and I am SO GLAD you gave me the opportunity to use it here! LOL.

Lol... Glad I could help! Holy crap. Psychoacoustic juxtapositioning?!?! Sounds like I need a shot to protect myself against something like that!

Thanks for the explanation Joe. I'm sure it's due to the "psycho" thing, but I actually understand what you're saying this time. Unlike all that line balanced, resister, blister, nonsense stuff from before...

[esgrillo]

Ed--you are correct. Ussing channels 1 & 2 give you more control of your audio--by having a mid range EQ control, and compressor on the channels as well as having a higher input gain. If you did want to go full stereo with the system, simply plug into channels 1 & 2--use the "pan" knob [red one] and turn ch 1 full to the left and ch 2 full to the right. Connect your speakers to the left & right outputs and you will be running true stereo. And you can use channel 5 & 6 ot 7 & 8 for your stereo system input---leave the pan pot there at 12 o'clock.
There isn't really ANY advantage to running stereo outside--if you run a mono signal everyone across your field of coverage will hear all of the music. eg: picture a song with a hard "left to right to left" in a drum solo---and you are at the extreme left [or right] of the coverage area---you won't hear everything that is going on. I can go into more detail, but I think this will give you the general idea why you should run mono with a small system. I hope this helps!

Good stuff Joe, thanks.

[cherrybomb1]

Rick---put the speakers in front of the people --facing them--between them and the fireworks.
There is a term in the audio field "psychoacoustic juxtapositioning". That is a very big, official sounding term--I don't get to say it too often and I am SO GLAD you gave me the opportunity to use it here! LOL.
What it means is that you brain --via your eyes--synchronize things to what your brain processes via your ears....If the fireworks is in front of you it seems more "natural" to you than if the sound is coming from behind you. Also, in a pyro musical--your mind will not notice the differences in time [as well] if a shell shot or comet run isn't exactly in sync with the music.
An easy way to explain this is---if you went to a theater to see a movie and the sound was coming from behind you instead of from the screen-- your ears would be telling your eyes that "something was off".

Pyrojoe you should start doing commercials for Dos Equis because you might just be"The most interesting Man in the World"lol

[Pyro@Mach13]

Pyrojoe you should start doing commercials for Dos Equis because you might just be"The most interesting Man in the World"lol

Start his own Pyro Sound podcast!!!!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Pyrojoe you should start doing commercials for Dos Equis because you might just be"The most interesting Man in the World"lol
Haha--thanks for that cherrybomb
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2820&stc=1

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Start his own Pyro Sound podcast!!!!

That's actually not a bad idea. Between Joe and Dave I'm sure they could do just that and make a small fortune in the process.

[esgrillo]

Rick---put the speakers in front of the people --facing them--between them and the fireworks.
There is a term in the audio field "psychoacoustic juxtapositioning". That is a very big, official sounding term--I don't get to say it too often and I am SO GLAD you gave me the opportunity to use it here! LOL.
What it means is that you brain --via your eyes--synchronize things to what your brain processes via your ears....If the fireworks is in front of you it seems more "natural" to you than if the sound is coming from behind you. Also, in a pyro musical--your mind will not notice the differences in time [as well] if a shell shot or comet run isn't exactly in sync with the music.
An easy way to explain this is---if you went to a theater to see a movie and the sound was coming from behind you instead of from the screen-- your ears would be telling your eyes that "something was off".

Joe I sent a PM

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Okay audio dudes... I tried the new sound system again today with the MIC to 1/4" adapter Joe sent me. Epic fail. No clue what's going on. I know the Audiobox is playing the WAV file because I plugged in a pair of headphones and I hear it just fine. Why it's not coming out of the speakers I have no idea. Here are some pictures of how I have it connected.

I have the RCA connectors going into the AMP's Main L/R In ports. I have the 1/4" Out plug feeding the "In" connector on the left speaker. I have another MIC cable going from the "Out" port on the left speaker, to the "In" port on the right speaker. I've moved the 1/4" plugs on the AMP to every section on the AMP and various combinations to see if I can get some sound. Nothing. I've turned up all the nobs and turned on all the buttons in various combinations with no luck either. Totally lost here.

2822
2823
2824

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Disregard!! Of course, immediately after posting that message I got it to work. Scared the s--t out of myself in the process, but I got it to work.

Apparently you have to have the Audio box volume controls set to max and then turn the red knob (pretty technical I know) up to blow out the eardrums. I don't recommend it by the way.

Looks like I'm finally in business with the sound. Yay!!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Disregard!! Of course, immediately after posting that message I got it to work. Scared the s--t out of myself in the process, but I got it to work.

Apparently you have to have the Audio box volume controls set to max and then turn the red knob (pretty technical I know) up to blow out the eardrums. I don't recommend it by the way.

Looks like I'm finally in business with the sound. Yay!!


Rick--let's "tweak" your setup a little bit now that you know it is working:
1.--set the knobs on the audio box at 12 o'clock.
2. WITH THE POWER OFF----plug the red & black 1/4" plugs [from the AudioBox] into the 1/4" LINE IN jacks on channels 1 & 2 of the mixer.
3. set the white [grey] LEVEL knobs on channels 1 & 2 at 12 o'clock
4. set the black GAIN knobs on channels 1 & 2 to 12 o'clock
5. set the MAIN MIX fader [slider on far right] all the way down.
6. Turn on mixer---then turn on speakers. ***when powering down, turn off the speakers first THEN the mixer. This prevents a loud THUMP in the system which could do some damage.
7. play the AudioBox music & slowly bring the Main Mix Fader up about half way .
*******for a starting point set the level control on the speaker amplifiers to 12 o'clock******
8. assess the amount of volume you are getting out of the system. you can turn up the ch 1 & 2 black gain knobs to around 3 o'clock if you do not see the clip light on the channels light up steady. blinking is ok.

you have several places that you can "make it louder' but the key is to "gain stage" the system--that means get the most out of each section without overloading [clipping---a funny scratchy noise] the electronics.
Do this & let me know how it works out & then we can proceed from there.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Great.... After my first failed attempt to get them working, I hit the power switch on the power strip I had everything plugged into and I heard a "snap" out of both speakers. Didn't sound good. After I got it working and I was done playing around, I turned off the power strip again and this time there was no snap. Hopefully I didn't hurt anything. I'll be sure to power the speraker on last and off first from now on!

I'll dig everything out tomorrow and set it up as you outlined Joe and I'll let you know what happens. Unfortunately I saw this too late to fuss with it anymore tonight. Thanks for that part and all the help!!!

[Stormcrow]

Would a system like this work. http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/270201-Behringer-EUROPORT-PPA500BT
2832

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Would a system like this work. http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/270201-Behringer-EUROPORT-PPA500BT
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2832&stc=1


I would NOT recommend it. The woofers are only 8" & will not give you much bass quality--also, they will not project very far. This is ok for a very small group [typically inside meeting hall type application] or low level music.
How large of an area do you need to cover--how many people? If you give me some more info I will do what ican to steer you to the best dollar per equipment investment. Also--what [if any] budget do you have for a sound system?

[Stormcrow]

Last year I had 50 people. I expect more like 100 this year. Cost isnt a huge concern but would like to be able to use it for other applications like outside around the pool. So looking for portable or weather proof. Staying under 1500 would be ideal but not a deal breaker. I may go with what you recommended for rick since my music was an epic fail last year due to no one could hear it. Thanks for the input.

[esgrillo]

Joe knows audio

[RalphieJ]

Last year I had 50 people. I expect more like 100 this year. Cost isnt a huge concern but would like to be able to use it for other applications like outside around the pool. So looking for portable or weather proof. Staying under 1500 would be ideal but not a deal breaker. I may go with what you recommended for rick since my music was an epic fail last year due to no one could hear it. Thanks for the input.

Please allow me to ask you this: Last year did your audience enjoy the show? Did they ooh and ahh, shriek and whoop, gasp and cheer, clap and holler and scream during the finale and after? If the answer to all of these are affirmative, then you don't need music. Forgive me but I'm old school, and the only thing I want to hear are the thumps, whooshes, whistles, crackles, pops and booms, and the appreciation from the crowd. Honking car horns are an added bonus, of course. Music and fireworks (my opinion) are oil and water. I don't care if you're Grucci with microchips embedded in your shells, they are NEVER perfectly synchronized with the music and hence an annoying distraction. Save your money on speakers and put it into product. NOBODY remembers what songs were played, but they will talk about your fireworks for a long time to come.

[Stormcrow]

Yes they did cheer but I politely disagree. The music presents a challenge and artistry I enjoy. It is probably more for me to be honest. I think it helps guide the audience to the rhythm of the show. But we are clearly different because when I saw my first pyromusical I was hooked. They went together like lamb and tuna fish ( big daddy reference). I agree the timing is rarely perfect but I don't think it distracts. Thanks for the input but the speakers aren't digging into my product budget either way

[esgrillo]

Stormcrow, I am with you. When you spend the time to synchronize dozens of effects with specific beats of the music and the volume is too low it is disappointing. Not only to me (which is very true) but I have had people come up and say I could not hear the music very well. One was my wife so you know damn well I had to do something about it lol. Last year I had a system that was good enough where it was loud enough to hear just about all the time and the crowd freaking loved it. When you are timing cakes yes precision usually is not a big deal but when you have slices, mines, comets, gerbs, etc... It is a different story IMHO. I my last show (link in my signature) the open sequence starting about 3:00 has all timed effects including side by side 18 shot comet racks hitting beats of the music and a brocade wall effect of nearly 30 mines. All time very close I think. Dare i say perfect? You can hear the crowd cheer. Theres other good "wows" at around the 7:00 mark and the 14:20 mark. People actually were cheering for a simple strobe effect during a lull transition between songs (thats not me saying "thank you thank you" btw in the video lol)

The other issue is when you are doing timed effects you will have some dark sky between shots sometimes and if you cant hear the music it makes the show kind of suck. I had a very short show when my audiobox did not start (my fault) and I just let it keep firing. As I watched without hearing music it was not a good show a good show to watch so I got the perspective of the audience that could not hear the music.

Even with all that and having a pretty good audio system... I upgraded to one that I finally believe will have enough output to get the sound where everyone can hear it. I think it's all "part of the show"

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Last year I had 50 people. I expect more like 100 this year. Cost isnt a huge concern but would like to be able to use it for other applications like outside around the pool. So looking for portable or weather proof. Staying under 1500 would be ideal but not a deal breaker. I may go with what you recommended for rick since my music was an epic fail last year due to no one could hear it. Thanks for the input.
Stormcrow--here is the equipment I suggested for Rick with one change: Originally I quoted the Behringer 1202 mixer--I made an error on that in the fact that the outputs were 1/4" TRS instead of XLR. [It only took an adapter to fix him up]. The proper mixer should be the 1204 model. This system comes out a good bit higher than your $15.00 dollar desired budget--at $2928.00---ut you do get free shipping with it & it can be purchased on their payment plan. Minimum is 4 payments--but you may be able to get longer terms--6 or 12 payments if you call and aks. They are GREAT people to work with and their customer service is excellent. I have been dealing with them for years.
Here is the list:

All items from zzounds.com

https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIMLN?siid=2565 1 ea. 50' $36.00 1 ea. 100' $54.00

https://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSHPRX2?siid=134233 Dual 1/4" TS to RCA $ 15.00

https://www.zzounds.com/item--MUPSS8800BPLUS 2 pack Crank up Tripods $ 159.00

https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB215D?siid=84514 B215D Speaker $330.00 EA X 2 = $660.00

https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEH1204USB Xenyx 1204 Mixer $ 150.00

----you also will need two heavy duty AC power cables--one to go from the mixer [ or your AC source] to the first speaker and another to go from speaker to speaker. I recommend at least 12-2 for these. Also, a lighter [14 or 16 ga.] power cord to connect the shooting table with your mixer, audio box, computer or other music source for pre-show music, etc.

Look this over and if you have any questions feel free to send me a PM. I hope this helps.
***It also will make an awesome system for use around your pool area!***

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Forgive me but I'm old school, and the only thing I want to hear are the thumps, whooshes, whistles, crackles, pops and booms, and the appreciation from the crowd
Nothing wrong with being "old school"..but what exactly is "old school"??? There is nothing wrong with embracing technology---most companies that hand light shows do it because it cost less than an e-fired show to put on. It certainly isn't safer for their crew to hand fire! In the "old days" they used a piece of smouldering rope [or a cigar] to light shells---then railroad flares--then the famous Bernzomatic TS4000 torch. Evolution??? How about personal shows?
People start out in pyro lighting class C with a Bic lighter [click click click click] then segue to fusing items together, then a "one fuse" show...this evolves to a cheapie Chinese firing system, then something more upscale-cobra, or one of the many other great systems out there. This opens the door to Pyro Musicals--something unattainable with hand firing. Is it good--is it bad??? or----- Just different.

Can you do a comet run "old school" hand firing? No. Can you get precise multiple breaks hand firing? No. Adding this type of firing capability to the pyro artist's pallet and synchronizing it all [precise or not] to music does give another level of enjoyment to the audience. This applies to both the hobbyist and the professional.
Would people go to the PGI to see the nightly competition displays or the Grand Public Display if they were not pyro musicals? Maybe 30 years ago----but not now.
Picture this: The old movie "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure"--if you haven't seen it imagine a couple whacked out mis-fit surfer/stoner "dudes" going back in time & bringing back many great people from the past--one of them was Beethoven...cut to scene of Beethoven in a music store in a mall playing a synthesizer--imagine the music possibilities to someone with that talent being given a level of technology he had never seen before--. I am sure he would embrace the "new school".
Doing a pyro musical takes a lot of product performance knowledge, design ideas, etc.it is a tool for the artist---not the "thump junkie". A pyro musical doesn't have to be perfect to the nano second---and the people do & will remember the show.
There is plenty of room out there for old school, new school, and [unfortunately] no school! LOL. It is fun. Have fun with it regardless of how you do it!

[RalphieJ]

Old school is hard to explain. I get what you're saying, and I truly appreciate the time and effort put into your 1.4 shows with music. I like them, but I'm getting old and cranky, and I apologize for that. I prefer the 1.3 shows of my childhood, therefore much of my disdain is directed towards the pro shows. I can't stand sky puke, I don't know most of the music that's being blared at competing decibels, and the last thing I want to hear between a beautifully falling willow and the surprise bottom shot is Bon Jovi screeching "JOHNNY USED TO WORK ON THE DA-HA-HA-HOCKS". (Musicians say the best note is sometimes no note.) Old school is a series of crescendos, medium pace, separated by flights, various multiple break shells, with and without bottom shots (to keep them off balance), a falso finale or two, and a grande finale starting off slowly, with peaks and slight pauses, (including a flash curtain of 100 or so 2" or 3" sans titanium), finishing up with crushing fusillade of salutes. I believe that Garden State Fireworks (Santore) still does Pt. Pleasant Beach New Jersey's weekly and 4th shows, they are masters of timing and pacing, no music. But, in the end, it's all moot if the crowd is cheering............

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Last year was my first PGI. They did a tribute show to a long time member who had passed. He was another "old school" pyro who didn't think music had a place with pyro. The shells that went up in his honor; one containing some of his ashes by the way; were amazing. It was truly an amazing thing to hear nothing but the thump of the gun, and then view the amazing colors and shapes and patterns of the shells as they unfolded in the sky above us. It really made you appreciate the artistry of the people who made the shells.

On the flip side, I got to sit up close and personal to a weeks worth of pyro-musicals that rocked me to my core! At 6'2" and 310, that's a lot of core!! Was there a lot of sky puke? Absolutely. But I don't think the intent of a pyro-musical is to make the viewer appreciate the artistry of the individual shells. A pyro-musical IMHO is meant to be a visceral "thing" that's meant to stimulate and at times to overload the senses. The last song in my show this year will be America the Beautiful by Ray Charles. I'm going to have multi-colored flame pots and falling leaf effects going off during that song to (hopefully) elicit a feeling in the spectators minds of just how beautiful this country is. I'm going to have a wall of red white and blue roman candles going up at another point to hopefully elicit a patriotic feeling in the spectators. Etc. and so on.

So I think the pyro-musical is simply another form of the art form. It's not better than the "old school" version, it's just different. Steak isn't better than lobster, it's just different. I love them both!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2834&stc=1

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joe - It only took two months but I finally had a chance to wire up the sound system and try the settings you advised to see what I could get out of the system. Quite a mixed bag.

Here's a pic of the amp set up the way you recommended (sorta)
2881
As you can see, I set the left and right inputs into line one and line 2 respectively, but as you recall, the cable I have is female on both ends so it won't fit in any of the DMX jacks. In this configuration, I got no sound at all.

So I moved everything over to the "FX Send" row (lines 5/6)
2882
In this configuration I was able to get sound, and I could adjust the sound level using the center white "level" knob only. The slider on the far right didn't work at all.

Lastly I tried using the "Main Out" (lines 9/10) and I was able to get sound and the slider bar on the far right worked. although, the green, yellow, and red indicator lights never came on, even when the slider was maxed out at the top. i turned on the +48v button and it had no effect.
2883

Having said all that, I think I can get by using the third setup. I can still turn up the volume knobs on the speakers themselves and (I assume) that will give me more sound.

Also... I realized that when I ordered the Audio Box, I had them install the DMX ports! Forgot all about that until I looked at the thing today. Would it make a difference in the sound quality if I bought cables that went from the DMX ports on the Audio Box to the DMX inputs on the amp?? Or would that further confuse things for me? Lol...

What do you think?

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Rick--the first picture--Audiobox outputs going to Ch 1 & Ch 2 inputs is correct. Move the output cable from the FX output jack over 2 or 3 jacks to either the Left or Right MAIN OUTPUT jack and you will be in business. Level 1 & level 2 for the two inputs and Main Mix slider for overall volume.

I assume you meant that you ordered the XLR output jack option [not DMX] that you mentioned above. You already have the proper cables to hook everything up "as is". The XLR option is used if you have to run longer wires from the AudioBox to the sound system--so "mike cords"--ie: low impedance balanced wires would be used. Not necessary in your case.

If you need to call me, feel free to do so anytime. If you didn't save my cell number PM me & I will send it to you.

I know it can be overwhelming and confusing at first, but it is a simple setup once the "ins & outs" are plugged up correctly. You can color code them to make life easier down the road.
Joe

[Rick_In_Tampa]

DMX... XLR... What's a few pins among friends?! :o

Like I said... I have no clue.

I'll dig the speakers out and try again.

So if I put the output cable in the far right output port, "Main Output Right" (ports 11/12) then the volume will be controlled by the white "Level" dial on the bottom in section 11/12, yes? Or will it be the slider bar on the right? Or is it both?!

Thanks for the help Joe!! I still have your number. Trying not to bother you though. It shouldn't be this difficult! :mad:

[cherrybomb1]

Joe - It only took two months but I finally had a chance to wire up the sound system and try the settings you advised to see what I could get out of the system. Quite a mixed bag.

Here's a pic of the amp set up the way you recommended (sorta)
2881
As you can see, I set the left and right inputs into line one and line 2 respectively, but as you recall, the cable I have is female on both ends so it won't fit in any of the DMX jacks. In this configuration, I got no sound at all.

So I moved everything over to the "FX Send" row (lines 5/6)
2882
In this configuration I was able to get sound, and I could adjust the sound level using the center white "level" knob only. The slider on the far right didn't work at all.

Lastly I tried using the "Main Out" (lines 9/10) and I was able to get sound and the slider bar on the far right worked. although, the green, yellow, and red indicator lights never came on, even when the slider was maxed out at the top. i turned on the +48v button and it had no effect.
2883

Having said all that, I think I can get by using the third setup. I can still turn up the volume knobs on the speakers themselves and (I assume) that will give me more sound.

Also... I realized that when I ordered the Audio Box, I had them install the DMX ports! Forgot all about that until I looked at the thing today. Would it make a difference in the sound quality if I bought cables that went from the DMX ports on the Audio Box to the DMX inputs on the amp?? Or would that further confuse things for me? Lol...

What do you think?
Looks like you got a hell of a setup there Rick...once you get it figured out you can start making money on the side doing weddings and bar mitzvahs!lol

[PyroJoeNEPA]

So if I put the output cable in the far right output port, "Main Output Right" (ports 11/12) then the volume will be controlled by the white "Level" dial on the bottom in section 11/12, yes? Or will it be the slider bar on the right? Or is it both?

Rick--the Main Out Left/Right jacks [whichever one you use] are not controlled by the Level on 11/12. The 1 & 2 Levels [bottom left side white rotary knobs--where the Audiobox wires are plugged in] will control the signal from the Audiobox & the Main Section Slider --all the way on the left on the bottom will control the SUM of channels #1 & #2 [master volume control].
No worries about calling me. Seriously. I'm here to help.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Looks like you got a hell of a setup there Rick...once you get it figured out you can start making money on the side doing weddings and bar mitzvahs!lol

Lol... The only thing I have so far is too much technology and not enough brains. Thankfully there are guys out there like PyroJoeNEPA who have the required knowledge and are willing to help. He's been a life saver so far. But if I finally crack the code on this one, I think I'm done. I'm going to take a picture of the setup and call it a career. Lol...

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Thanks again Joe. I think I get what you're saying. I'm going to have to plug it in again and see what happens. Definitely let you know! :)

[esgrillo]

Joe knows audio

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joe knows audio

Joe definitely knows audio for sure! Definitely helped me crack the code on this stuff. Now I need to find out how to buy him some beer in Pa from down here in Fl!

[PTFan]

Joe definitely knows audio for sure! Definitely helped me crack the code on this stuff. Now I need to find out how to buy him some beer in Pa from down here in Fl!

What would you like me to ship you?
Lol

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Joe definitely knows audio for sure! Definitely helped me crack the code on this stuff. Now I need to find out how to buy him some beer in Pa from down here in Fl!
HaHa. Not necessary Rick---you are off the hook for that because I don't drink. Knowing that you have the new sound system up and running and are happy with it and now can take your shows to the next level is all I want. Pyromusical 2108 video---will be waiting for it!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

What would you like me to ship you?
Lol

A 6' blue eyed blonde would be nice!

Just be sure to include an RMA label so I can send back the model I already have.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

That's a deal Joe!! :cool:

[3 Fingers]

Hey Pyro Joe,
According to Scott at Cobra, the 1/4" output jack on the Audiobox is a 1/4" stereo output.
If I am running out of that jack into a Bose T1 mixer (mono 1/4" input) what would you recommend for a cable?
Someone on this thread claimed that you know audio!
Thank you Sir!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

3 Fingers--[Love the screen name!!!!] I had to look up the specs on your T1 mixer. Very nice setup!
I downloaded the PDF spec sheet for the mixer & they say the 4/5 input will accept a 1/4" TRS input.

C:\Users\User\Downloads\_home_httpd_data_media-data_9_Bose_T1_ToneMatch_Manual-.pdf

All you need to connect to the AudioBox is a 1/4" TRS to 1/4"TRS cable.
Here is a link to one qt Zzounds:
https://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSHSS?siid=122422
A 3 foot or 5 foot would be fine if the AudioBox is next to your mixer.
You can plug it into any of the inputs--but input 4/5 is already optimized up for line level so I would put it there & keep the other channels open for an announce mike, pre show music input, etc.
Any other questions, let me know. Save shooting!!!

[3 Fingers]

Pyro Joe thank you so much! I appreciate you taking the time Sir!
When one thinks about ALL of the things we have to think about from product to ematch to fuse to site safety to MP3 music files to audio gear and it goes on and on...
It's nice to have friends here who get it and are willing to lend their expertise.
I've done biz with Zzounds before and they are great.
Thanks again!

[krayg]

Rick, I have upgraded to QSC K12.2 Active 12" speakers and a Yamaha MG10XU mixer/preamp. I'm going to test tomorrow so Ill let you know how they sound.

Hi Ed,

I could hear the music in your show easily on youtube but do you feel the K12.2's were sufficient with all the explosions? I'm building a dance studio for my daughter so I get to pick the speakers. I'm planning on K12.2's but I'm concerned they won't be loud enough for pyromusical so I'm also considering a couple SRX815p speakers.

[PyroBrad]

I purchased Mackie 15 Thump for my July 4, 2018 pyro-musical and they were outstanding.

[cptnding]

I followed this thread closely last year and I'm finally going to take the next step in adding music to my shows. I have zero knowledge about audio systems.
I have a question about speakers for PyroJoeNEPA or anyone else. I have a buddy who has offered to basically give me a Behringer B115D speaker that he is no longer using. PyroJoeNEPA had recommended the B215D and I'm wondering if you guys think the 115 would do the job. If the 115 would be acceptable it would save some money as I would only need to buy one more. If the 215 is that much better then the extra would be well spent. I compared the specs but I really don't know what I'm looking at. Here's a link to each one:

B115D https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB115D
B215D https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB215D

What confuses me is the 115 is rated for 1000w peak and the 215 is 550w peak yet the 215 is more expensive. I'm sure there is a reason for this but I have no idea what it is lol.
Thanks for your help!

[krayg]

Hi cptnding,

I'll try my best to answer with the research I've done. I haven't run a real show with it yet so accept my info with a grain of salt.

The B215D is probably more costly because it's newer and they report the true wattage rating of the speaker. The 1000W of the B115D is most likely not true. I noticed that when I researched PA speakers from other manufacturers. I would recommend that you use the Maximum Sound Pressure Level (SPL) to determine the best speaker. Unfortunately the B115D doesn't have a published rating. The B215D is rated at 126. Since you have access to the B115D today, I would set it up at the proper distance you expect to use them and use a decibel meter (or phone app) to determine what the dB is. Watch the clip light on the rear of the speaker. 98dB is a comfortable level. If it rates that at the distance you expect, then it should be fine. Again, since I haven't run it with a real show I'm not sure how much the fireworks will drown it out.

As for differences, I wouldn't trust the wattage ratings. I noticed that the B115D accepts a lower frequency at 45Hz but I doubt think it'll make a difference since they are being used outdoors. I actually modify my music to remove some of the bass.

krayg

[PyroJoeNEPA]

I have a question about speakers for PyroJoeNEPA or anyone else. I have a buddy who has offered to basically give me a Behringer B115D speaker that he is no longer using. PyroJoeNEPA had recommended the B215D and I'm wondering if you guys think the 115 would do the job. If the 115 would be acceptable it would save some money as I would only need to buy one more. If the 215 is that much better then the extra would be well spent. I compared the specs but I really don't know what I'm looking at. Here's a link to each one:

OK cptnding--here we go! Don't be concerned with the specs--99% of the "specs" published are hype just like the fireworks industry does!
Peak power mans ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in real world ratings. Without getting "full on techie" on you the short answer in looking for speakers is the RMS power rating of the speaker in watts and also the SPL rating...these, too, can be "fudged" but not using the same measurement standards. A speaker tested at 1KHZ will not measure the same as a speaker measures at 2KHZ, etc...there are MANY things to factor in when evaluating speakers---that is why the best thing to do is ask questions.
Now, concerning your needs---since you have access to a "free" B115, get another B115. It will work fine for you. It is not as "beefy" as the B215 but you can't beat the price. Get the speakers up in the air so the horns are at least at --or above--head height of the adults for best projection [coverage]. I hope this helps. Any more questions, feel free to ask.

[cptnding]

OK cptnding--here we go! Don't be concerned with the specs--99% of the "specs" published are hype just like the fireworks industry does!
Peak power mans ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in real world ratings. Without getting "full on techie" on you the short answer in looking for speakers is the RMS power rating of the speaker in watts and also the SPL rating...these, too, can be "fudged" but not using the same measurement standards. A speaker tested at 1KHZ will not measure the same as a speaker measures at 2KHZ, etc...there are MANY things to factor in when evaluating speakers---that is why the best thing to do is ask questions.
Now, concerning your needs---since you have access to a "free" B115, get another B115. It will work fine for you. It is not as "beefy" as the B215 but you can't beat the price. Get the speakers up in the air so the horns are at least at --or above--head height of the adults for best projection [coverage]. I hope this helps. Any more questions, feel free to ask.

Thank You for the info PyroJoe. I'm sure I will have more questions lol.
BTW I've gotten a lot of use out of those ports I got from you. They are great for making slices out of broken down fan cakes and bridging quick match to visco on fused racks and very small bore cakes.

[carrant]

I've been following this thread and finally clicked submit on an order from zzSounds to include nearly all of PyroJoeNEPA's suggestions (I swapped the speakers for Yamaha DXR15's).

PyroJoeNEPA - thanks for all or your posts in this thread!

zzSounds' customer service/tech support is top notch - I chatted with them about speaker selection and they were extremely helpful.

[joed2323]

I've been following this thread and finally clicked submit on an order from zzSounds to include nearly all of PyroJoeNEPA's suggestions (I swapped the speakers for Yamaha DXR15's).

PyroJoeNEPA - thanks for all or your posts in this thread!

zzSounds' customer service/tech support is top notch - I chatted with them about speaker selection and they were extremely helpful.

If you dont mind me asking, what was the reason for the Yamaha's?

Did you stick with just two powered speakers, did you end up picking up a subwoofer as well or will you add a subwoofer next year if need be?

This thread definitely has great recommendations and alot of useful knowledge that will help others

[topshelfpyro]

Do you guys feel like the Behringer speakers are better than the Peavey DM-112?

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Do you guys feel like the Behringer speakers are better than the Peavey DM-112?

The primary concern with using the Peavey DM-112's is that they only have a 12" woofer compared to the 15" in the Behringers. So, if you are not using a stand alone sub with them you will notice a difference in the low end with the Peaveys.
I have been disappointed with the Peavey product line since they sold out the company and out sourced all their production and manufacture to China. There was a time when it was all made in Meridian MS. I toured the plant back in the 1970's [and have a picture of me with Hartley Peavey]...they were cutting edge at the time--having gone from a "garage assembly company" to a huge entity employing hundreds of people.
Behringer originated in Germany and their designs are-in my opinion- far superior to the current Peavey product line. Their acquisition of Midas mixers really boosted their credibility in the audio market.
The bottom line is that both companies are "low end"---using parts from China--so you are sort of safely comparing apples to apples. Like I said earlier, the 12" woofers will not give you the "punch" that the 15's will...and when you are outside you need all the bottom you can get.

[topshelfpyro]

The primary concern with using the Peavey DM-112's is that they only have a 12" woofer compared to the 15" in the Behringers. So, if you are not using a stand alone sub with them you will notice a difference in the low end with the Peaveys.
I have been disappointed with the Peavey product line since they sold out the company and out sourced all their production and manufacture to China. There was a time when it was all made in Meridian MS. I toured the plant back in the 1970's [and have a picture of me with Hartley Peavey]...they were cutting edge at the time--having gone from a "garage assembly company" to a huge entity employing hundreds of people.
Behringer originated in Germany and their designs are-in my opinion- far superior to the current Peavey product line. Their acquisition of Midas mixers really boosted their credibility in the audio market.
The bottom line is that both companies are "low end"---using parts from China--so you are sort of safely comparing apples to apples. Like I said earlier, the 12" woofers will not give you the "punch" that the 15's will...and when you are outside you need all the bottom you can get.

Yea, I get that. I suppose a better comparison would be the DM 115 with the 15" woofer. Do you feel that since the peaveys are more $ that they are not worth the extra $? I can't find the actual RMS output of the behringer but the peavey do list theirs in the manual that can be found online.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

and when you are outside you need all the bottom you can get.

Wait... Are we still talking about speakers?? :confused:

For what it's worth, I don't know speakers from spark plugs. But I DO know that the Behringer speakers Joe spec'd out for me last year are awesome. They will rattle the fillings right out of your teeth.

[carrant]

If you dont mind me asking, what was the reason for the Yamaha's?

Did you stick with just two powered speakers, did you end up picking up a subwoofer as well or will you add a subwoofer next year if need be?

This thread definitely has great recommendations and alot of useful knowledge that will help others


joed2323:
I read various reviews and chatted with zzsounds about my goal and probably because of some personal preference/bias, I went with the Yamaha speakers.

I don't think I will be adding a subwoofer, but I don't know enough about audio to know if one is needed.
I considered ordering four speakers but decided to give two a try first.

After 2019 July Fourth is over I will have a better idea about what, if anything, to add to the system <- subject to budgetary constraints :-)

[joed2323]

Do any of you guys with your powered speakers (pa system) have 4 speakers or more?
How many speakers do you have for your show?

It seems my crowd grows in size each year and I am suppose to have a way bigger crowd this year

2 powered speakers worked for me last year, but I feel like I need to add a dedicated subwoofer at minimum and possibly add in 2 more 15" powered speakers to what I currently have now.

Adding more speakers, say two up front in the middle and 1 on each end, 4 total should increase the sound level correct?

My setup worked last year, but during pyro heavy segments the fireworks would drown out the music and it was difficult at times to hear the music (loud enough for my liking)

With that being said, if I'm having this issue with the fireworks over powering the music, do I need to double what I currently have to increase sound level?

I'm thinking I'm going to need to add 2 more powered speakers and possibly a subwoofer this year.


How many speakers do you guys run to cover your crowd size?

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joel - Pyrojoenepa Spec'd out a set of speakers and an amp for me that I used for the first time last year. The details of the system you can find in this thread. The system was about $1100. Plenty of power for where I shoot.

Having said that (and Joe can back me up on this!) I'm a moron when it comes to sound systems. So I am neither stating or implying what I have will work for you. My guess is the first thing Joe would ask you is what you have now, and how big the shoot site is you need to fill with music.

[joed2323]

Joel - Pyrojoenepa Spec'd out a set of speakers and an amp for me that I used for the first time last year. The details of the system you can find in this thread. The system was about $1100. Plenty of power for where I shoot.

Having said that (and Joe can back me up on this!) I'm a moron when it comes to sound systems. So I am neither stating or implying what I have will work for you. My guess is the first thing Joe would ask you is what you have now, and how big the shoot site is you need to fill with music.

Rick-

So your happy with your setup I take it?

No issues with your system staying loud enough even through pyro heavy segments?

Rick, do you have a subwoofer to go along with your powered speakers, if not have you thought about getting one, or do you have no need to?

My crowd size grows every year, so I feel like I need to add atleast 2 more speakers to get a wider area of sound coverage.

[3 Fingers]

The best thing I ever did was just rent powered speakers from a Sound Company. It cost me a few hundred but was well worth it.
I have my own little mixer which is all you need to test your show with R2 and Audiobox and a pair of headphones. On show day just pick up the speakers and hook em up to the mixer. That way I had plenty of power on show day without buying/storing all the big heavy audio gear. Worked great!

[Jay_]

I went with a pair of Rockville RAM15BT’s. With tax they were like $430 for the pair.

My site is very remote and it was either choose a rechargeable (or 12v) speaker, or spend $1000 on a Honda 2200 watt generator that would be quiet enough to run a show. I do have a generator that I run my camper off of...but it’s a 6500 watt and way too loud.

From the reviews that I read, there have been several issues with the batteries that these ship with, so I will be pulling a deep cycle battery out of my boat to hook to the external power input on both before the show. Don’t want to take chances.

I ran my audio box through them, and they sound decent for the price. Seem to be plenty loud enough.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

joed2323--like Rick said--what do you have now, how big is your shoot site [distances] and how large is your audience? Also, what style music are you planning to use? Many variables--oldies rock & roll doesnt suck up power for bass like rap or techno, soft classical and country, etc...give me a little more info & I will do my best to assist you.
A simple answer to your original question--adding another pair of speakers will allow you to have more volume--but more importantly more even sound coverage. If your speakers only have a 12" woofer, then you will be "light" on the low end and a subwoofer--or two--would help. If you have 15" speakers you should be able to get a reasonable low end from them--again--contingent on what your expectations are.
As Johnny 5 in SHort Circuit said "Input--I need input"......If you don't know what that was all about, no worries.

[joed2323]

joed2323--like Rick said--what do you have now, how big is your shoot site [distances] and how large is your audience? Also, what style music are you planning to use? Many variables--oldies rock & roll doesnt suck up power for bass like rap or techno, soft classical and country, etc...give me a little more info & I will do my best to assist you.
A simple answer to your original question--adding another pair of speakers will allow you to have more volume--but more importantly more even sound coverage. If your speakers only have a 12" woofer, then you will be "light" on the low end and a subwoofer--or two--would help. If you have 15" speakers you should be able to get a reasonable low end from them--again--contingent on what your expectations are.
As Johnny 5 in SHort Circuit said "Input--I need input"......If you don't know what that was all about, no worries.

So I'm running bottom of the barrel Rockville rpg15" powered speakers. For the price I ended up getting them for it was kinda silly for me to pass them up. They worked last year but like I said the continous power rating just wasnt enough to stay loud enough during pyro heavy segments. I had my speakers just maxed right out.

For a mixer I was using a small behringer xenyx502 mixer.

I shoot from 3 locations and I generally try and shoot from all 3 stations at once so it's pretty easy to drown out the music with the current setup that I have.
I am still wanting to use these speakers but on the outer ends of where my crowd sits.

So last year I had a crowd somewhere around 200ppl, guessing??

This year I'm shooting a show for someone else as a type of celebration for a grand opening to his business. And this guy wants to invite everyone and anyone, so I just dont know how big of a crowd might show up this time. 250-400 ppl possibly?? He cant give me an exact head count. He is planning on having parking for campers if that tells you anything!?

I am looking to pick up 2 more 15" powered speakers this time jumping up in continous power rating. I know it's easy to get lost with peak power and overlook the continous power rating of the speaker, spl rating makes a big difference from what I gathered...

I am currently looking at a cpl different brands. What do you know about the turbosound Milan m15? I believe behringer bought them out a few years back? I know their stuff was good and it has amazing reviews. They Have a spl rating of 130db and can be had for right around $498 each.
Also was looking at the alto ts 315s seem to have good reviews.
Electo voice zlx-15p
Was also looking at the Yamaha dbr 12s with their 132db rating, I found some for $429 but I feel like I need to stick with 15"s speakers

I was also looking at the behringers that you mention but man people on other audio forums just straight hate on behringers and mackies, it's kinda sick listening to these people just bash these entry level speakers. Seems like these two brands got a bad rap over time... definitely alot of butt hurt ppl out there hating these brands...

I guess I need to decide what price point I want to stay at. Obviously I get what I pay for with the speakers I already own so I'm trying to decide on what price point I want to stay at. I'd rather not spend $1200 bucks for two speakers, but I know those Yamaha dbrs get plenty loud. Not sure if I want to invest that much with just 2 speakers, but if I need something of higher quality I have no choice I guess. Better to bite the bullet once then twice like I will end up doing

I plan to get a slightly bigger mixer, probably something similar to what you suggested Rick get.

I also feel like I could benefit from a subwoofer or,
2. but if I could only afford one sub up front, would that even make a difference?

For sub, I'm looking at the behringer b1800xp 3000w.
Would I need to go with this 18" for a subwoofer to make an impact or would a 15" subwoofer be enough to add to the 15" powered speakers? If I had a sub I could cut out most of the lows on the 15" speakers so I could push them louder and not clip...

I guess if I'm debating about going with behringer for subwoofers I should invest in their b615d powered speaker?

The b215d only has 550peak with 450 watt going to the LF driver and 100 going to the HF driver. Is the woofer on this speaker that much more efficent that it doesnt need that much to drive this woofer or what??

Sorry man I'm all over the place with this post.

What would you reccomend I do so I can get loud enough.
I will have the crowd all sit in one area I will try and pack the crowd in tightly in atleast a 100'-200' area

With the weak setup I had last year I didnt really have anyone complain about the music not being loud enough except my father-in-law who is somewhat def and was drinking so he wanted it super loud.

So for music I try and do a mix to please my crowd.

Rock,country, pop, I am playing two guns and roses songs, gangnam style, shoot me straight, and some other songs just to name a few

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick-

So your happy with your setup I take it?

No issues with your system staying loud enough even through pyro heavy segments?

Rick, do you have a subwoofer to go along with your powered speakers, if not have you thought about getting one, or do you have no need to?

My crowd size grows every year, so I feel like I need to add atleast 2 more speakers to get a wider area of sound coverage.

Yes... I'm more than happy with my setup. I just need to get smart on how to configure and employ it better.

I don't have anything besides the 2 speakers and the amp. Haven't thought about getting a sub-woofer because I have no clue what that is or why I'd need it. Obviously, I've heard of the term, but I have no idea what it is in relation to the other stuff I have.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

OK--lets get started: I looked at the specs on the Rockville speakers & had a laugh at the "hype" thesse people dump into their spec sheets. Anyway, you have a pair and they will work for you--the class AB amp draws more "juice" [current] than the class D amplifiers so this is important to know if you are running long AC power cords from your AC location.
I would go back and look at the speakers & mixer that I originally spec'd for Rick. They will do a good job for you without spending a lot of money. I know one person that has 8 of them and spreads them out across a huge field to cover 1000-2000 people,
Turbosound, EV, and Yamaha are all good brands but it is a pointless investment to buy a higher priced speaker to only use once or twice a year.
You are correct in saying Behringer & Mackie have gotten a bad rap over the years. There was a time when their product line was garbage but that is not the case any more. But, haters will be haters!! If you did a "blind" sound test most of these people could not distinguish one brand from another.
Let me say here that specifications are more than a couple numbers on paper: It would take me many paragraphs to explain how things are rated and how the numbers can be "tweaked" to favor what the manufacturer wants the end product to look like on paper. That being said, you can not trust the DB [decibel] rating without knowing what the input signal was [pink noise or a single sine wave frequency] and the distance from the speaker to the measurement microphone.
Now--as for the sub woofer--If you go with another pair of speakers and get the Behringers I spec'd earlier, I don't think you would need a sub.
The difference in the 15" to the 18"sub woofers is basically in the extreme low end response. Low frequencies are omnidirectional so a sub in the middle of the speaker fronts would cover everything. Two would cover better, 4 even better--you see where I am going with this. I would save the money for the sub and get the Behringer15" full range speakers and see how they work out for you. If you need a little more umph for next time, sell toe Rockvilles on Craigs List to some up & coming garage band and replace them with another set of Behringers.
Also--stands are important! Look at the crank up stands I spec'd for Rick. Easy to set up & tear down & you aren't dead lifting the speaker to get it in the air once it is on the stand. The speakers should be at around "head height" with the bottom of the horn around the top of your head. Too low & you will be blasting people in the face---too high & the highs will overshoot the audience.
I think I covered everything---feel free to jump back in with any follow up questions. I will get back to you ASAP but there is a lot going on here now with the pyro season so I might take a day or two to get back to you [especially over the weekend].
Joe

[joed2323]

OK--lets get started: I looked at the specs on the Rockville speakers & had a laugh at the "hype" thesse people dump into their spec sheets. Anyway, you have a pair and they will work for you--the class AB amp draws more "juice" [current] than the class D amplifiers so this is important to know if you are running long AC power cords from your AC location.
I would go back and look at the speakers & mixer that I originally spec'd for Rick. They will do a good job for you without spending a lot of money. I know one person that has 8 of them and spreads them out across a huge field to cover 1000-2000 people,
Turbosound, EV, and Yamaha are all good brands but it is a pointless investment to buy a higher priced speaker to only use once or twice a year.
You are correct in saying Behringer & Mackie have gotten a bad rap over the years. There was a time when their product line was garbage but that is not the case any more. But, haters will be haters!! If you did a "blind" sound test most of these people could not distinguish one brand from another.
Let me say here that specifications are more than a couple numbers on paper: It would take me many paragraphs to explain how things are rated and how the numbers can be "tweaked" to favor what the manufacturer wants the end product to look like on paper. That being said, you can not trust the DB [decibel] rating without knowing what the input signal was [pink noise or a single sine wave frequency] and the distance from the speaker to the measurement microphone.
Now--as for the sub woofer--If you go with another pair of speakers and get the Behringers I spec'd earlier, I don't think you would need a sub.
The difference in the 15" to the 18"sub woofers is basically in the extreme low end response. Low frequencies are omnidirectional so a sub in the middle of the speaker fronts would cover everything. Two would cover better, 4 even better--you see where I am going with this. I would save the money for the sub and get the Behringer15" full range speakers and see how they work out for you. If you need a little more umph for next time, sell toe Rockvilles on Craigs List to some up & coming garage band and replace them with another set of Behringers.
Also--stands are important! Look at the crank up stands I spec'd for Rick. Easy to set up & tear down & you aren't dead lifting the speaker to get it in the air once it is on the stand. The speakers should be at around "head height" with the bottom of the horn around the top of your head. Too low & you will be blasting people in the face---too high & the highs will overshoot the audience.
I think I covered everything---feel free to jump back in with any follow up questions. I will get back to you ASAP but there is a lot going on here now with the pyro season so I might take a day or two to get back to you [especially over the weekend].
Joe

Joe

What do you recommend for mixer since I should upgrade into a slightly bigger mixer with a few more channels. Same one you pointed Rick towards or should I look into a different model behringer mixer? With the huge selection of mixers out, do the more expensive mixers give you better sound to your speakers or is it hog wash? I dont think I need something fancy since I'm not recording music.

I will also be getting my power from a generator. We plan to push it away from crowd as far as possible without creating problems within the power run length.

I could run two main power cords from generator each to it's own set of speakers? Or can I get by with one main power cord run from generator to say my mixer area then branch of using a heavy duty 3 way, one going to mixer then the other two going to each set of speakers. Or would you recommend me using a power strip instead?
Do I need to be careful on how long I run power from generator to my setup?
Lastly can I get by with a 3000-4000 watt generator or do I need to higher in size of generator

[PyroJoeNEPA]

I recently upgraded the small mixer I use for pyro musicals to this unit from ZZOUNDS:
https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHQX1222USB?siid=121253
I have inputs for an audio box, announce mikes, laptop for pre-show music, and extra channels. I have had 2 audio boxes and a fire one system hooked up at a club shoot. It is a very nice mixer and very easy to use. It has more "bells & whistles" than you might need to start with, but you will grow into it.
As far as power from the generator--depending how many powered speakers you are using and how far they are spread apart--here are some things to look at on the Harbor Freight web site....I run off of generator power for many events & as long as you have a heavy enough power cord you will be ok. Again, if you can give me an idea of 1. Distance from generator to first speaker 2. Distance between speakers 3. Number of speakers [2 or 4] 4 Location of sound table [distance] forward of the speakers.

AC Power Cord Requirements:
100 foot 14-3
Harbor Freight SKU(s) 62926, 62928
Vanguard 100 ft. x 14 Gauge Indoor/Outdoor Extension Cord $36.99


50 foot 16-3 Harbor Freight SKU(s) 62941, 63450
Vanguard 50 ft. x 16 Gauge Indoor/Outdoor Extension Cord $14.99


25 foot 14-3 Harbor Freight SKU 62920
Vanguard 25 ft. x 14 Gauge Indoor/Outdoor Extension Cord $13.39



1 ea. 8 outlet power strip [sound table]
Harbor Freight SKU 62437
HFT? 6 Outlet Heavy Duty Power Strip with Metal Housing $22.99


1 ea. Cube Tap 12 gauge 15 amp
Harbor Freight SKU(s) 45185, 61998

Hope this helps!!!!

[joed2323]

I recently upgraded the small mixer I use for pyro musicals to this unit from ZZOUNDS:
https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHQX1222USB?siid=121253
I have inputs for an audio box, announce mikes, laptop for pre-show music, and extra channels. I have had 2 audio boxes and a fire one system hooked up at a club shoot. It is a very nice mixer and very easy to use. It has more "bells & whistles" than you might need to start with, but you will grow into it.
As far as power from the generator--depending how many powered speakers you are using and how far they are spread apart--here are some things to look at on the Harbor Freight web site....I run off of generator power for many events & as long as you have a heavy enough power cord you will be ok. Again, if you can give me an idea of 1. Distance from generator to first speaker 2. Distance between speakers 3. Number of speakers [2 or 4] 4 Location of sound table [distance] forward of the speakers.

AC Power Cord Requirements:
100 foot 14-3
Harbor Freight SKU(s) 62926, 62928
Vanguard 100 ft. x 14 Gauge Indoor/Outdoor Extension Cord $36.99


50 foot 16-3 Harbor Freight SKU(s) 62941, 63450
Vanguard 50 ft. x 16 Gauge Indoor/Outdoor Extension Cord $14.99


25 foot 14-3 Harbor Freight SKU 62920
Vanguard 25 ft. x 14 Gauge Indoor/Outdoor Extension Cord $13.39



1 ea. 8 outlet power strip [sound table]
Harbor Freight SKU 62437
HFT? 6 Outlet Heavy Duty Power Strip with Metal Housing $22.99


1 ea. Cube Tap 12 gauge 15 amp
Harbor Freight SKU(s) 45185, 61998

Hope this helps!!!!


Last year I had my two speakers spaced about 50' apart maybe a tad more then that from my audio box and mixer directly in the middle of the two speakers. Now looking back I did not actually have my speakers directly dead center.

This year I would like to put two speakers I plan to purchase directly on each side of my mixer table. Is there a recommended distance apart they should be for the two speakers in the center?? I'm guessing I will stick the outer speakers somewhere around 50-75 foot out from center or shoul

Generator I guess I'm not sure how far I plan to put it from mixer atleast 100'-200' from speakers, I should be able to find one to borrow from someone, i just dont know what size i need to be looking for to borrow? will 3000 watt generator be enough or is that not enough? I'd rather have too big then too small a generator.

If you use a generator often Joe, how far away do you put the generator?

Also do you have a slightly lower priced mixer you recommend? I want to stay in the $100-$200 range. All I'm doing is carrying a signal from the audiobox out to the speakers. I dont think I need anything fancy do I? If these higher priced mixers actually carry a better signal somehow that increases sound levels then I guess I could change my budget if need be.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Putting the speakers directly next to the mixer table is going to be difficult for you to judge how the sound is for the audience. There are a couple ways to set up the speakers--but I would suggest this" Put the two new speakers you get together --in the center--and angle them left & right about 20 -25 degrees away from each other. This creates what is called a "point source" for the sound. Picture two garden hoses with spray nozzles together--creating one fan of water coming out from them. Sound works in a similar fashion. The other two speakers can be spread out evenly at the 1/3 & 2/3 positions between center and the end of your coverage area. I would position the sound table in front of the speakers as far as you can--closer to the audience--at least 30 ft or more if you have the room.
Here is a less expensive Behringer mixer that will do the job for you:
https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX1202FX
The new Behringer speakers using the Class D amps draw very little current--your Rockvilles will pull more current with them. Generator size--a 3000 watt generator will be fine. And 200 ft will be ok if you are using the 14 gauge power cords. You can build a 3 sided barrier with some plywood to put around the generator to help muffle the sound from the people if it is an older noisier unit.
I typically have the generator 175 feet from the system..I use 10-3SO cables simply because I have them from when I had my sound system rental company. They are heavier than required, but I use what I have. Why buy smaller when something you already have works???

[joed2323]

Putting the speakers directly next to the mixer table is going to be difficult for you to judge how the sound is for the audience. There are a couple ways to set up the speakers--but I would suggest this" Put the two new speakers you get together --in the center--and angle them left & right about 20 -25 degrees away from each other. This creates what is called a "point source" for the sound. Picture two garden hoses with spray nozzles together--creating one fan of water coming out from them. Sound works in a similar fashion. The other two speakers can be spread out evenly at the 1/3 & 2/3 positions between center and the end of your coverage area. I would position the sound table in front of the speakers as far as you can--closer to the audience--at least 30 ft or more if you have the room.
Here is a less expensive Behringer mixer that will do the job for you:
https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX1202FX
The new Behringer speakers using the Class D amps draw very little current--your Rockvilles will pull more current with them. Generator size--a 3000 watt generator will be fine. And 200 ft will be ok if you are using the 14 gauge power cords. You can build a 3 sided barrier with some plywood to put around the generator to help muffle the sound from the people if it is an older noisier unit.
I typically have the generator 175 feet from the system..I use 10-3SO cables simply because I have them from when I had my sound system rental company. They are heavier than required, but I use what I have. Why buy smaller when something you already have works???

Nice. This sounds like a great plan. Thanks a million for all your help so far.

Ideally how far away should the speakers be from the crowd 30' or is can I squeeze the speakers closer to them? I would think the ppl sitting up front will get somewhat blasted by sound. I know higher is better with speakers. Last year I probably only had them 48" from the ground. Is there a sweet spot high, height wise for where the speakers should be off the ground?

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Get as much distance from the audience as you can with the speakers--farther is better--it will flow together from the 3 locations better---but, ultimately, you have to work with the space that you have. Can you go a Google Earth of the shoot site & post it--or just PM it to me for privacy. I can better help if I can see what you are dealing with for a layout.

From post # 119:
Also--stands are important! Look at the crank up stands I spec'd for Rick. Easy to set up & tear down & you aren't dead lifting the speaker to get it in the air once it is on the stand. The speakers should be at around "head height" with the bottom of the horn around the top of your head. Too low & you will be blasting people in the face---too high & the highs will overshoot the audience.

[joed2323]

Joe yes I can do that. I will try take some good Google earth pics

I honestly didnt know to put the speakers as far away as possible from audience? I would think you want them as close as possible (within 25' or so of audience)?

I think with where I am shooting this year I will have as much room as whatever I need so if a certain distance is optimal then i shouldnt have any issues doing so

[pyrobeef]

I am sorry to keep this thread going, but I am very new to this and want to get some clarification on my understanding of this thread. I will be hosting my first pyromusical this summer. It is part of a larger event being held for suicide prevention and awareness. We are expecting anywhere from 500 to 1,000 people (sorry for the large variance, but it's our first time and we are really unsure - keep in mind I live in a community where people will drive 30 miles and wait in a line for an hour to watch a Christmas light show; I expect a fairly large turnout :cool:). The event will be held at a local golf course. Here is the equipment I am planning to purchase and use for the event (suggestions or guidance welcome here):

(1x) Behringer XENYX 1204USB 12-Channel Mixer with USB (https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEH1204USB)
(4x) Behringer B215D Powered Speaker (550 Watts, 1x15"), Black (https://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHB215D?siid=84514)
(2x) On-Stage SS8800B Plus Power Crank Up Speaker Stand, 2-Pack (https://www.zzounds.com/item--MUPSS8800BPLUS?siid=34926)
(1x) Hosa Pro Stereo Interconnect Cable, Dual 1/4" TS to RCA, 10', HPR-010X2 (https://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSHPRX2?siid=134234)
(1x) CBI LowZ Microphone Cable with Neutrik Connectors, 50 Foot, 2-Pack (https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIMLN?siid=58518)
(1x) CBI LowZ Microphone Cable with Neutrik Connectors, 100 Foot, 2-Pack (https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIMLN?siid=58515)

I am planning to place the speakers approximately 30 feet in front of the audience (guidance on the distance would be helpful). Two speakers will be placed in the center, slightly spaced apart and turned at a 20 degree angle between the two. The other two speakers will be placed 40 feet off center in either direction, and faced directly at the audience. See the attachments for a site plan and speaker layout.

This layout is based on my understanding of suggestions provided in this thread, mainly by PyroJoeNEPA (it sounds like he is the expert on this topic). I am hoping to get a thumbs up on my understanding, if not, then some guidance to get this right. A couple of questions I have are:

1. Is this enough speaker for the size of crowd we are expecting? (I can't really afford any more right now, but we plan to do this event every year, so thought I would ask.)
2. Is this layout / placement I am proposing sufficient to produce the best results?
3. Any additional suggestions on equipment would be helpful as well (better options or things I may not have included that I will need)

Thanks in advance for any help you are able to give this new guy!

47294730.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

No need to apologize for keeping the thread going. There is a lot of good details covered in here. I looked over your layout and the equipment list is basically ok--might want to make a change or two on the mike cord lengths: more on that in a minute. Do not forget that you will interconnect all of your speakers with a GOOD GRADE AC power cord.
1. Where is your AC power coming from? Source and distance to the shooter table.You mentioned that it is at a golf course--are you planning on using a generator or is there an AC pedestal nearby that you will have access to?
2. Is the audience area generally flat with regards to where the speakers will be located?
3. How far [side to side] can you place the two outer speakers? Your drawing [great job, by the way] shows 80 feet between speakers, but possibly 120 feet?
4. Why type music will you be playing & I assume it will be a mix [families] young to old[er] people?

Get back to me with the answers to these questions and I will give you some more input.
We will make this work for you.

[pyrobeef]

PyroJoeNEPA, thank you for your reply and help! I was hoping I would get a response from you as you seem to be the expert on this. Here are the answers to your questions, and thank you in advance for your help!

1. The AC Power source is coming from a pedestal about 82 feet away from the table. (I attached another image showing you where the power is coming from.) I am not opposed to using a generator if you think that would be better. I was planning to purchase a 100-ft 14-gauge extension cord to go from the power source to the shooter table. Then, from the shooter table using a power strip run 16-gauge extension cords to each of the speakers. If you have a better solution to this, please do share with me!
2. Yes, it is generally flat in the area around the speakers and what I am calling the Audience area. Once you get to the path behind the Audience area, it does incline gradually (maybe 10 feet in elevation over 200 feet of path). The two neighboring fairways are also relatively flat with the fairway we are shooting on.
3. The 80 foot separation was just my best guess to start with. Yes, I can spread them wider, up to about 140 foot separation if needed. So your suggested 120 feet is doable - I will await your guidance on this.
4. The music will be a variety of different styles. Specifically music from "The Greatest Showman", Two Steps From Hell, and Zack Hemsey. Mostly what I would call modern classical music / movie trailer music and movie soundtracks. And you are correct, those attending will range widely in age although we are targeting families with children ages 9 to 19 for the event and their parents.

Thank you again so much for your help with this! Please let me know if you have any more questions for me or would like additional information.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

pyrobeef Sorry it took a couple days to get back to you:Looking at your grounds plot I would suggest that you place your speakers 40 feet apart--that would be one on each outer edge of the field pointing in at a 30 degree angle--the two in the center would be seperated by 40 feet also instead of next to each other--and pointing straight ahead.
One thing you need to check with your AC power source is what size breaker is it and where the breaker box for that circuit is. I once did a small concert for a youth group in a park. The breaker box was nearby in a maintenance building [as I was told] but they neglected to tell me the building was locked and nobody around had a key for it. Sound check went fine, but come time for the show the band decided to turn everything up to "11" and popped a breaker...you get the picture.
Anyway, send me a PM and I will give you my cell number and go over some stuff with you in more detail.

[pyrobeef]

Perfect! And no worries on the time lapse...I am sure you have plenty to be doing other than answering my questions! I sent you a PM and look forward to speaking with you!

[joed2323]

I do not know nearly as much as joe does but I agree if you can get a generator in their that can handle the load you will have no issues with popping breakers.

you can even move the generator away from the crowd so they do not hear the generator running.

this past year I used a generator and we stuck it in an enclosed trailer and left the back doors open and faced the trailer away from the crowd, doors away from crowd, it was a fairly decent sized generator and you couldn't hear that baby run in the dead of night the way we had it set up.

I would put your speakers as close to the crowd as possible. I ran 2 diff speakers last year, and of course my yamahas definitely over powered my crappier 15" powered speakers I had.

I definitely did not have enuf speaker for my crowd size
I needed more speakers in the back of the crowd.

The front of the crowd got blasted but near the back of the crowd the sound definitely was quieter then up front

This year we plan to enclose the crowd with speakers in a different format.

when you pack say 500+ in a square and you only have speakers up front, the back end of that crowd suffers some from not having any speakers. If we had some speakers that went down the sides even that would have helped tremendously.

In my opinion one can never have enough volume/speakers. you can always turn it down some if it's too loud or too much speaker for you crowd size but if your crowd size over matches your speaker setup, they will have some difficulty if they are not up front near the speskers

[pyrobeef]

Good advice joed2323. I am sure I could find someone with a generator with enough power...although, I am not smart enough to even know how much power I am needing. Hopefully the setup I am going for this year will serve us well. I have worried about the volume in the back of the crowd not being enough though. Hopefully I hear from Joe in the next few days to work out some of the smaller details...I need all the help I can get!

[topshelfpyro]

4826

This thread is full of good information so it doesn't bother me to open it up again. If your in the market and can swing them I highly recommend the QSC K12.2 speakers LOUD AND CLEAN. Also, I just got the new KS118 active sub to add some low end and wow it really adds what the K12.2's can't do.
FYI Sweetwater sound is offering free financing on alot of there gear if your interested.

PS: Thanks again Pyrojoe for all the answered questions.

[esgrillo]

4826

This thread is full of good information so it doesn't bother me to open it up again. If your in the market and can swing them I highly recommend the QSC K12.2 speakers LOUD AND CLEAN. Also, I just got the new KS118 active sub to add some low end and wow it really adds what the K12.2's can't do.
FYI Sweetwater sound is offering free financing on alot of there gear if your interested.

PS: Thanks again Pyrojoe for all the answered questions.

I second the QSC K12.2's. Thats what I use and they KICK ASS. Match them with a good mixing board. I have a yamaha MG10XU and it works perfect with the QSC's

[rfgonzo]

I just purchased the items listed below. Is there anything else I need?
Qty

Subtotal
1
CBI LowZ Microphone Cable with Neutrik Connectors (New, 50 Foot)
In Stock
$36.95
1
Hosa Pro Stereo Interconnect Cable, Dual 1/4" TS to RCA (New, 10', HPR-010X2)
In Stock
$23.95
1
On-Stage SS8800B Plus Power Crank Up Speaker Stand (New, 2-Pack)
In Stock
$169.95
1
Behringer B215D Powered Speaker (550 Watts, 1x15") (New, Pair)
In Stock
$659.99
1
Behringer XENYX 1204USB 12-Channel Mixer with USB (New)
In Stock
$219.99
Subtotal
$1,110.83
Shipping
$0.00
Estimated Tax
$66.65
Total
$1,177.48

[krayg]

I just purchased the items listed below. Is there anything else I need?
Qty

Subtotal
1
CBI LowZ Microphone Cable with Neutrik Connectors (New, 50 Foot)
In Stock
$36.95
1
Hosa Pro Stereo Interconnect Cable, Dual 1/4" TS to RCA (New, 10', HPR-010X2)
In Stock
$23.95
1
On-Stage SS8800B Plus Power Crank Up Speaker Stand (New, 2-Pack)
In Stock
$169.95
1
Behringer B215D Powered Speaker (550 Watts, 1x15") (New, Pair)
In Stock
$659.99
1
Behringer XENYX 1204USB 12-Channel Mixer with USB (New)
In Stock
$219.99
Subtotal
$1,110.83
Shipping
$0.00
Estimated Tax
$66.65
Total
$1,177.48

I may be misinterpreting your quantities but it looks like you bought two speakers but only one XLR cable.

[Robbro097]

If your using cobra audiobox your gonna need a preamp, unless mixer has 1 built in.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

If your using cobra audiobox your gonna need a preamp, unless mixer has 1 built in.

He doesn't need a "preamp"--that is what the mixer does.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

I just purchased the items listed below. Is there anything else I need?
Qty

Subtotal
1
CBI LowZ Microphone Cable with Neutrik Connectors (New, 50 Foot)
In Stock
$36.95
1
Hosa Pro Stereo Interconnect Cable, Dual 1/4" TS to RCA (New, 10', HPR-010X2)
In Stock
$23.95
1
On-Stage SS8800B Plus Power Crank Up Speaker Stand (New, 2-Pack)
In Stock
$169.95
1
Behringer B215D Powered Speaker (550 Watts, 1x15") (New, Pair)
In Stock
$659.99
1
Behringer XENYX 1204USB 12-Channel Mixer with USB (New)
In Stock
$219.99
Subtotal
$1,110.83
Shipping
$0.00
Estimated Tax
$66.65
Total
$1,177.48


You are short one mike cord. There are two ways to connect the speakers to the mixer:
1. Speaker #1 to speaker #2, Speaker #2 to one output on mixer.
2. PREFERRED WAY---speaker #1 to mixer left output, speaker #2 to right mixer output. ***This allows individual control of each speaker from the mixer in the event you want/need one side louder than the other.

[rfgonzo]

I may be misinterpreting your quantities but it looks like you bought two speakers but only one XLR cable.

Do I need another cable? This is all new to me. The DJ we had booked for our July 4th show just canceled yesterday cuz of Covid. Now I'm scrambling for audio. Please help. I read this all last night and looked like Pyrojoe recommend all the above.

[rfgonzo]

Thanks, we were typing at the same time. I will get another cord.

[rfgonzo]

I ordered the other cord, Thank you guys for the help. Next question... If I purchase another cord could I run a third speaker? I have a Pyle PPHP155ST that we used for my daughters basketball games. I know the wattage isn't the same but could I still use it?

[krayg]

I ordered the other cord, Thank you guys for the help. Next question... If I purchase another cord could I run a third speaker? I have a Pyle PPHP155ST that we used for my daughters basketball games. I know the wattage isn't the same but could I still use it?

Yes. You could run the cable from the XLR output on one of the two speakers you purchased to the Pyle. The mixer seems to have other outputs too that could be utilized for the Pyle.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Yes you can. Use the LINE INPUT--not the Mike Input. Still best to use the L & R XLR balanced outputs on the mixer. If you need specifics, PM me and I will walk you through it.

[rfgonzo]

Thanks guys.
I will PM you next week when everything shows up if I can't figure it out. Thanks,

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joe!! I hate to resurrect an old thread, but I have another speaker question. My wife told me today that "no one can hear my music over the fireworks." The speakers are set off to the side because I'm afraid of some kid tripping over a cable and bringing one of those things down on their head, and I lose my house and life savings. If you recall you spec'd out a pair of 550W speakers, so I have 1100W total at the moment.

So my question is this. Is there some gizmo I can buy or some adjustments I can make to make them louder? If not, my thought is to buy two more of the same speakers and place them on the other side of the crowd and run a long cable between them (keeping the speakers on the ground!). I don't know if there's a distance limitation for the cabling and amp you spec'd out for me, but I assume I can daisy-chain two more speakers into the two I already have, yes?

What recommendation(s) can you give me to dial up the sound Sir?!

[topshelfpyro]

Joe!! I hate to resurrect an old thread, but I have another speaker question. My wife told me today that "no one can hear my music over the fireworks." The speakers are set off to the side because I'm afraid of some kid tripping over a cable and bringing one of those things down on their head, and I lose my house and life savings. If you recall you spec'd out a pair of 550W speakers, so I have 1100W total at the moment.

So my question is this. Is there some gizmo I can buy or some adjustments I can make to make them louder? If not, my thought is to buy two more of the same speakers and place them on the other side of the crowd and run a long cable between them (keeping the speakers on the ground!). I don't know if there's a distance limitation for the cabling and amp you spec'd out for me, but I assume I can daisy-chain two more speakers into the two I already have, yes?

What recommendation(s) can you give me to dial up the sound Sir?!

Rick.....just upgrade to the QSC K12.2 speakers ha ha (they really are great).....if your gains are set as loud as they will go without the clip lights coming on that's all the speaker can deliver. More speakers or/and different speakers are your choices. And put the speakers in front of the people!

[esgrillo]

Rick.....just upgrade to the QSC K12.2 speakers ha ha (they really are great).....if your gains are set as loud as they will go without the clip lights coming on that's all the speaker can deliver. More speakers or/and different speakers are your choices. And put the speakers in front of the people!

I have to agree... that is what I have and they are the first set of speakers I purchased that deliver the volume I needed. They were my 3rd stab at it lol

[Bitzan]

Joe!! I hate to resurrect an old thread, but I have another speaker question. My wife told me today that "no one can hear my music over the fireworks." The speakers are set off to the side because I'm afraid of some kid tripping over a cable and bringing one of those things down on their head, and I lose my house and life savings. If you recall you spec'd out a pair of 550W speakers, so I have 1100W total at the moment.

So my question is this. Is there some gizmo I can buy or some adjustments I can make to make them louder? If not, my thought is to buy two more of the same speakers and place them on the other side of the crowd and run a long cable between them (keeping the speakers on the ground!). I don't know if there's a distance limitation for the cabling and amp you spec'd out for me, but I assume I can daisy-chain two more speakers into the two I already have, yes?

What recommendation(s) can you give me to dial up the sound Sir?!

Rick,
You mention fear of tripping over wires. You can send audio to your speaker wirelessly. Not cheap but I have seen pretty lofty budgets on this site so I thought I would share.

Best: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XSWDXLRSet--sennheiser-xsw-d-xlr-base-set

Good:https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/U3Set--xvive-audio-u3-microphone-wireless-system

Both of these systems have a transmitter and a receiver. The typical use case is from a microphone to the mixer. You can however use them to send sound from a source to the PA speakers. They are sold as set (one transmitter and one receiver) you then buy additional receivers for each speaker (minus one that is included in the set).

Just a thought. PS - almost for certain that if you get rid of the wires some kid will just run into a speaker directly, have it fall on his head and you still lose everything so maybe I shouldn't have posted!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Rick---lots of questions here---
1. As others have said, the QSC K12.2 are much louder than the Behringers you have---but also 3-4 times more costly.
2. Going "wireless" isn't a fix--you are only eliminating the audio signal wires. You STILL have to run AC power cords to the speakers, so that is not a solution either.
3. Getting the speakers in front --or closer-- to the audience will help. I would suggest some 4ft 1"x2" wooden stakes with "crowd control" tape to box the speakers in---I have had to make a "runway" with the same method for some outside concerts I did sound for to keep people from parking their lawn chairs on top of my audio & control cables.
4. Maybe make a "cattle pen" for the audience to better focus their seating arrangements?
5. Yes, you can add additional speakers into your existing setup. Low Impedance [mike wires] can be run for an extremely great distance with no loss of signal. Be sure to use a good quality AC power cord so you do not have a voltage drop to deal with.
6. There are several ways to set up your speakers [if you add an additional pair]. Can you post--or PM me- a block diagram--or google earth--of how you are set up & I can give you some recommendations that are not vague, but geared to your specific topography.
7. I assume you still have my cell number? If not, pm me & I will send it to you. Lots easier to talk than type.

[topshelfpyro]

The speakers are set off to the side because I'm afraid of some kid tripping over a cable and bringing one of those things down on their head, and I lose my house and life savings.

Rick, I would suggest you invest in better stands if you really are worried about them falling over. as an option....I bought Ultimate Support TS-99BL stands for my QSC speakers and I have no worries about them falling over and they will go 9' high if you want. They are not the cheapest things around (~$300 a pair) but they are awesome and not throwaway stands if something stupid does happen. Just a thought, equipment tends to last a very long time if taken care of and the old adage of buy cheap cry twice applies generally. Leave some slack in your cables close to the speakers and/or keep people out of the area. Considering what is spent on the yearly pyro buy, equipment that will last many years is relatively cheap over the long run. At least that is how I justify my toys to myself LOL

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick.....just upgrade to the QSC K12.2 speakers ha ha (they really are great).....if your gains are set as loud as they will go without the clip lights coming on that's all the speaker can deliver. More speakers or/and different speakers are your choices. And put the speakers in front of the people!

"if your gains are set as loud as they will go without the clip lights coming on" I have no idea what that means, but all the knobs on the amp are turned up max, and the slider bar is all the way up. There are LED's above the slider bar, but they never come on, so I have no idea what that means. If those are the "clip lights" you're talking about, then they're not on.

So will these QSC K12.2 speakers work with the speakers I already have? Can I daisy-chain them together with the (I think they're called) XLR cables??

Would definitely like to put them in front this year. But on the ground so they don't hurt anyone.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick---lots of questions here---
1. As others have said, the QSC K12.2 are much louder than the Behringers you have---but also 3-4 times more costly.
2. Going "wireless" isn't a fix--you are only eliminating the audio signal wires. You STILL have to run AC power cords to the speakers, so that is not a solution either.
3. Getting the speakers in front --or closer-- to the audience will help. I would suggest some 4ft 1"x2" wooden stakes with "crowd control" tape to box the speakers in---I have had to make a "runway" with the same method for some outside concerts I did sound for to keep people from parking their lawn chairs on top of my audio & control cables.
4. Maybe make a "cattle pen" for the audience to better focus their seating arrangements?
5. Yes, you can add additional speakers into your existing setup. Low Impedance [mike wires] can be run for an extremely great distance with no loss of signal. Be sure to use a good quality AC power cord so you do not have a voltage drop to deal with.
6. There are several ways to set up your speakers [if you add an additional pair]. Can you post--or PM me- a block diagram--or google earth--of how you are set up & I can give you some recommendations that are not vague, but geared to your specific topography.
7. I assume you still have my cell number? If not, pm me & I will send it to you. Lots easier to talk than type.

Yikes... Not looking to spend 3-4 times as much on speakers. I just popped over to ZZounds while typing this and I see they are $800 each, but they have 2K Watts each. Wow. That's almost 2 times the power I have from both of my current speakers combined! So now it's stupid question time. If I bought just 1, that would almost triple my total output from 1100W to 3100W, and I can pick up a "scratch - dent" speaker for $565. Does that sound like a reasonable solution? Maybe put the QSC K12.2 in front of the crowd and 1 Behringer on either side? If so, would I be able to daisy-chain all three together?

Before you get too far down that rabbit hole, let me get you that block diagram to review, and I'll call you after you've had time to review everything. Love the idea of a cattle pen for the speakers!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I have to agree... that is what I have and they are the first set of speakers I purchased that deliver the volume I needed. They were my 3rd stab at it lol

OMG... Exactly what I should have done the first time too. smh... Oh well. Better late than never eh? lol...

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Joe - I can't send attachments using the e-mail function on here, so I'll post the images here if that's okay.

The spectator viewing area is our HOA "common area" which is approx 140' across, and is located right in the front/center of the retention pond I use as my shoot site. The one neighbor lets me use her power for the sound system, so I set up the speakers right outside of her rear lanai at the position indicated in red on the picture. I'm also attaching the larger topology view for overall context.

5489

5490

[topshelfpyro]

Yikes... Not looking to spend 3-4 times as much on speakers. I just popped over to ZZounds while typing this and I see they are $800 each, but they have 2K Watts each. Wow. That's almost 2 times the power I have from both of my current speakers combined! So now it's stupid question time. If I bought just 1, that would almost triple my total output from 1100W to 3100W, and I can pick up a "scratch - dent" speaker for $565. Does that sound like a reasonable solution? Maybe put the QSC K12.2 in front of the crowd and 1 Behringer on either side? If so, would I be able to daisy-chain all three together?

Before you get too far down that rabbit hole, let me get you that block diagram to review, and I'll call you after you've had time to review everything. Love the idea of a cattle pen for the speakers!

Don't get to hung up on the marketing where speakers are concerned. When it says 550 watts or 2k watts or 10k watts its a peak output for marketing. RMS output is a more valuable number which is what the amplifier can produce continuously and is sometimes very hard to find out. The QSC's I have are over 1k watts RMS and the Behringer's I looked at are around 125-150 (550 peak). The QSC are 3x the cost but again you generally get what you pay for. You have to get your speakers in front of your audience that's just the way it is. Yes if you bought 1 QSC and added it to your current speaker set it would help but it would also be doing most of the output so you really cant expect miracles. The QSC's have a radiated output of about 75 degrees total so you would need to keep that in mind for placement. Again in FRONT of your audience. Yes you can daisy chain multiple speakers with the XLR cables but you still have to power them! I run a 100' 10awg extension cord then branch off of it with 12awg extension cords. That pulls 2 QSC K12.2, QSC KS118sub, mixer, possibly flame machines this year which will draw over 15 amps total. Another run of just 12awg cords from a separate plug and breaker runs 2 more QSC K12.2 heads.

[topshelfpyro]

5491 This is a great option for multiple outlets. Its 50' 12awg with outlets spaced every 10'. available from badassextensioncords.com also a little cheaper thru amazon from the same place. very nice cord.

[topshelfpyro]

Would definitely like to put them in front this year. But on the ground so they don't hurt anyone.

You really need to get the speakers in the air.....use better, more stable stands and/or better spectator control if needed. If the speakers are in the air they will naturally be easier to hear than placed on the ground.

[esgrillo]

Rick, I also have mine on stands like topshelf is recommending .... Helps a lot getting them off the ground.

[WithReport]

...

Would definitely like to put them in front this year. But on the ground so they don't hurt anyone.


How large is the audience?

FWIW, we have used two Yamaha DBR15 speakers (~500W RMS). I sit on my speaker budget every year as we have constantly been able to borrow the DBR15s from our kids music teacher. There are certainly more powerful speakers out there, and I'm a bit jealous and who doesn't want "MORE POWER", but these have worked very well for our ~150-250 guests the past years (This past year was a smaller and without the BBQ due to shutdowns) and people say they were able to hear the music just fine.

We do have stands for them, but I struggle with putting them on stands in front of everyone, as I try to use all layers of of sky and ground and don't want the speakers blocking the view - so that is something else to think about. Knowing sound would be better if they were up off the ground, two years ago I put them up on empty wine barrels, but I still felt that was blocking the view.

This is on a completely higher level, but for SkyWars had a tremendous amount of speakers strung up in front of everyone. For that venue, I'm not sure what they could have done differently, but if there was an option, I'd have the view for the show clear of obstructions.

5494


Anyways, back to the "backyard" stuff, this year, we put them back on the ground. I paint a arc on the ground that everyone has to stay behind, I of course sit dead center on a shooters table with the amp. The speakers ae set about ~20ft off to each direction and directed about 20-30 degs outward in each direction.

You can see the top of one of them in this image - it was sitting on the ground.

5493


Ultimately, I hope to edit them out on the finished images or videos.


5492


Oh, the first Pryomusical I did, I had the speakers hidden behind everyone as adding music was a surprise - that was kind of fun (that is posted somewhere on this forum from a few years ago).

[PyroJoeNEPA]

SkyWars had a tremendous amount of speakers strung up in front of everyone. For that venue, I'm not sure what they could have done differently, but if there was an option, I'd have the view for the show clear of obstructions.

FWIW--that one lift with the line array speakers is probably $25-30,000 worth of speakers. An average line array box is over a thousand dollars. Not in the budget for we lowly "backyard" guys.
I used to have a regional touring sound company [many, many years ago] and the dollar amount of the equipment required to do even a small venue of 3,000-5,000 people was ridiculous [even back then].
This is a lengthy thread--we have had lots of back and forth discussions and I am pleased to see all the people commenting on the thread.
There is always a "better' way of doing things, but my initial approach to Ricks original questions about a sound system was to get him into something that would work reasonably well without breaking the bank and avoiding some of the very low cost "options" that would not do the job.

On the point of putting your speakers on stands---if they are about 5 feet off the ground they will cover much better than on the ground. The higher frequencies coming out of the horn are directional, so if the horns are at [average] head height you will get better coverage than if they are projecting into peoples lower bodies.

[tonyr]

I already bought the 1204 mixer listed previously in this thread and I am about ready to pull the trigger on speakers but I want to make sure I have something that the audience hears. Are there others that have used the 215D Behringer speakers with success based on placement in front of the crowd or should I just pony up for some more expensive K12.2 speakers (or something equivalent)? @withreport how do your Yamaha's work? Can the crowd hear them over the fireworks?

[rfgonzo]

I already bought the 1204 mixer listed previously in this thread and I am about ready to pull the trigger on speakers but I want to make sure I have something that the audience hears. Are there others that have used the 215D Behringer speakers with success based on placement in front of the crowd or should I just pony up for some more expensive K12.2 speakers (or something equivalent)? @withreport how do your Yamaha's work? Can the crowd hear them over the fireworks?

tonyr, I purchased the 1204 and 4 215D's this past summer for my 4th of July show. I was very happy with my setup! My show is on the smaller side we normally have 300 to 400 people at our block party. This past 4th cuz of covid we only had 150 to 200 max. Everyone was able to hear the music perfectly fine. Since we only have 1 show per year I couldn't justify spending the extra $$$ on something more expensive. All speakers were on speaker stands and the crowd was in a viewing area roughly 250ft long. The speakers were setup in two different V V formations 30 yards apart and about 35 to 40 feet in front of the crowd. For my size show the speakers surpassed my expectations.

You can hear the sound quality in my show under my signature if your interested.

[topshelfpyro]

I already bought the 1204 mixer listed previously in this thread and I am about ready to pull the trigger on speakers but I want to make sure I have something that the audience hears. Are there others that have used the 215D Behringer speakers with success based on placement in front of the crowd or should I just pony up for some more expensive K12.2 speakers (or something equivalent)? @withreport how do your Yamaha's work? Can the crowd hear them over the fireworks?

It really depends on what you want to do and what your willing(or can) to spend to get there. I started with the QSC's because I went to a dealer and demoed the behringer's which were not very loud inside the store to me. Your speakers do need to be in front of the crowd either way. I put mine 50-60' away with about 50' of separation but directly in front and I was told only 2 times were they hard to hear over the pyro. ultimately it is up to you to decide what will work for your situation. Personally i'm a fan of buy once cry once. Full disclosure: I did a free financing deal for my PA system thru Sweetwater. I did not just write a check for the $3k.

[topshelfpyro]

You can hear the sound quality in my show under my signature if your interested.

Sounds pretty good but that speaker must be on top of that camera since you can barely hear the pyro over the music. What happened at around 6:50? It sounds like the speaker dropped out or something? There is a distinct tonal shift

[topshelfpyro]

We do have stands for them, but I struggle with putting them on stands in front of everyone, as I try to use all layers of of sky and ground and don't want the speakers blocking the view - so that is something else to think about. Knowing sound would be better if they were up off the ground, two years ago I put them up on empty wine barrels, but I still felt that was blocking the view.



Have you considered starting to piece together a truss system so you can fly the speakers instead of putting them on stands? Monoprice has some "affordable" truss i've considered everytime they put it on sale but haven't pulled the trigger at all.

[rfgonzo]

Sounds pretty good but that speaker must be on top of that camera since you can barely hear the pyro over the music. What happened at around 6:50? It sounds like the speaker dropped out or something? There is a distinct tonal shift

One of my Neighbors sons took it upon himself to turn the volume down because his grandfather was complaining the music was to loud in his hearing aids.

[topshelfpyro]

One of my Neighbors sons took it upon himself to turn the volume down because his grandfather was complaining the music was to loud in his hearing aids.

Yea that makes sense!

[Birdman]

I don't want to imply this is a good solution for Rick or others but I've recently started looking into alternatives to speakers like audiofetch that streams audio to smart phones. This spring I'll be testing a FM transmitter I already purchased. Certainly not preferable to quality speakers but these may be options for those looking for alternatives. I don't want to hijack this thread about speakers but thought it was worth throwing out there.

[tonyr]

Pair of 215Ds are $659. Pair of K12.2s are $1600. Definitely a large spread between those, but the adage of you get what you pay for probably applies. As I won't be using these more than 2 to 3 times a year and the size of my audience is typically less than 75 to 100 I think I will give the 215Ds a shot and cross my fingers they are loud enough. If it comes to it and they are not adequate, well then there is always next year. I think this year I've decided it makes more sense to expand my cue count with the $1000 saved by going with the 215Ds. Appreciate everyone's advice.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Thanks to everyone for all the great input. The common thread seems to be, get the speakers off the ground and put them in front of the crowd. So I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and dig those stands out and use them this year. I'll try to fashion a anchoring system so they can't be toppled over very easily. Building a pen around them also sounds like a great idea.

[Birdman]

One option I can think of is getting some of THESE (https://www.amazon.com/FCOME-Protector-22000Lbs-Capacity-Extension/dp/B07NX75CJT/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords=outdoor+power+cord+protector&qid=1610335202&sr=8-19) or THIS (https://www.amazon.com/overfloor-Protector-Channels-Fastening-Organizer/dp/B07PLN65BH/ref=sr_1_28?dchild=1&keywords=outdoor+power+cord+protector&qid=1610335678&sr=8-28)

I've seen them used a lot at concert venues, carnivals etc. Wrap your cables around your stands then around one of the legs and run it under the ramp. Also put some plastic fencing around the speakers.

[WithReport]

@withreport how do your Yamaha's work?

I've been pleased with them for the past few years. Everyone says they can hear the music fine. However, every year I'm tempted to purchase something personally - I borrow them every year.



Have you considered starting to piece together a truss system so you can fly the speakers instead of putting them on stands?

No, I haven't. How would that be any better. Are you suggesting a fly-over truss setup where people are looking under the truss? I don't see how that would be ideal.



... I've recently started looking into alternatives to speakers like audiofetch that streams audio to smart phones. This spring I'll be testing a FM transmitter I already purchased. Certainly not preferable to quality speakers but these may be options for those looking for alternatives. I don't want to hijack this thread about speakers but thought it was worth throwing out there.

FYI, there may be some additional delay to consider - depending on how precise you are after. Some systems or scripting software will allow a "global delay" that can easily be used to account for that. We've set up some demos and a closing pyromusical with a local FM transmitter and everyone tuned in on their car. I was near the speakers, but I understand it worked fairly well for everyone in the cars

[topshelfpyro]

No, I haven't. How would that be any better. Are you suggesting a fly-over truss setup where people are looking under the truss? I don't see how that would be ideal.


Exactly, if the speakers are xx' off the ground and out of the line of sight of the sitting audience wouldn't that achieve what your after?

[topshelfpyro]

Pair of 215Ds are $659. Pair of K12.2s are $1600. Definitely a large spread between those, but the adage of you get what you pay for probably applies. As I won't be using these more than 2 to 3 times a year and the size of my audience is typically less than 75 to 100 I think I will give the 215Ds a shot and cross my fingers they are loud enough. If it comes to it and they are not adequate, well then there is always next year. I think this year I've decided it makes more sense to expand my cue count with the $1000 saved by going with the 215Ds. Appreciate everyone's advice.

You can always buy more speakers next year if you find yourself wanting more.

[Scotty Rockets]

Just a few posts and some caution tape if your concerned. Another option is heavy mats over the wires. As far as what system you buy, just go with a well known brand even if it is their budget line. Run your PA speakers relatively close to your spectators. I just did a pyromusical at our club last september running to mackie 12 thumps 3/4 volume, close to the spectators and audio was not a problem it was plenty loud enough. And remember you can always add another PA speaker and daisy chain it into the group.

[Birdman]

I just did a pyromusical at our club last september running to mackie 12 thumps 3/4 volume, close to the spectators and audio was not a problem it was plenty loud enough.

I use an even smaller cheapo self powered speaker (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XZFNZ5D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and it works. My audience is usually under 20 people so it's easy to get them all gathered close to speaker. Certainly not sufficient for large audiences and big shows but it gets the job done for my small backyard family shows like the one I did on new years.

[ssmith512]

Wow....amazing amount of info in this thread. I have learned A LOT from reading it. Thanks all who have contributed. Me and my neighbor are going to try our hand at putting on a "pyro-show" this upcoming 4th for our neighborhood.
I have attached a plan of our shoot site location and I am looking for any and all advice regarding speaker placement/setup, as our site is somewhat unusual maybe.

We are shooting over a pond. In my satellite image of the site, the red box represents the location of the fireworks shoot site ? it is 280ft from the spectator area. The green box is where the spectators will congregate. As you can see, the green box is roughly 240ft wide and only 25ft or so "deep". The orange circle is "command central" where I will be setup with the Cobra system, the laptop (using SMPTE and not an Audio box), the sound mixer, etc..

Assuming using the B215D speakers or maybe Yamaha DBR-12 speakers I am looking at two different speaker setup ideas???

The two pink boxes represent one idea for speaker location. This idea would be the preferred (easiest) method for me with regard to cables/power cords/etc. as it is close to ?command central?.

The two yellow boxes represent a second idea for speaker location. The yellow lines from the yellow boxes show how I could run the speaker power cords (one to my house and one to my neighbors house) and the light blue line connecting the yellow boxes represents the XLR cable running along the shoreline connecting the speakers. This XLR cable would be every bit of 300-325ft long I am guessing. Not sure if that is even feasible.

A third idea not shown is placing maybe 4 or so ?cheaper, less powerful? speakers equally spaced along the shore line in front area of the green box. I am thinking I could get away with less powerful speakers using this method since the spectator area is only 25 ft deep, but again, not smart enough to know if that idea would work. Just be more cables I would have to run. And haven?t researched enough to see if I can get speakers in a lower cost range that can be daisy chained like that.

Hoping to get some of your expert opinions/ideas/suggestions.

Thanks in advance!!

Steve

[topshelfpyro]

Wow....amazing amount of info in this thread. I have learned A LOT from reading it. Thanks all who have contributed. Me and my neighbor are going to try our hand at putting on a "pyro-show" this upcoming 4th for our neighborhood.
I have attached a plan of our shoot site location and I am looking for any and all advice regarding speaker placement/setup, as our site is somewhat unusual maybe.

We are shooting over a pond. In my satellite image of the site, the red box represents the location of the fireworks shoot site ? it is 280ft from the spectator area. The green box is where the spectators will congregate. As you can see, the green box is roughly 240ft wide and only 25ft or so "deep". The orange circle is "command central" where I will be setup with the Cobra system, the laptop (using SMPTE and not an Audio box), the sound mixer, etc..

Assuming using the B215D speakers or maybe Yamaha DBR-12 speakers I am looking at two different speaker setup ideas???

The two pink boxes represent one idea for speaker location. This idea would be the preferred (easiest) method for me with regard to cables/power cords/etc. as it is close to ?command central?.

The two yellow boxes represent a second idea for speaker location. The yellow lines from the yellow boxes show how I could run the speaker power cords (one to my house and one to my neighbors house) and the light blue line connecting the yellow boxes represents the XLR cable running along the shoreline connecting the speakers. This XLR cable would be every bit of 300-325ft long I am guessing. Not sure if that is even feasible.

A third idea not shown is placing maybe 4 or so ?cheaper, less powerful? speakers equally spaced along the shore line in front area of the green box. I am thinking I could get away with less powerful speakers using this method since the spectator area is only 25 ft deep, but again, not smart enough to know if that idea would work. Just be more cables I would have to run. And haven?t researched enough to see if I can get speakers in a lower cost range that can be daisy chained like that.

Hoping to get some of your expert opinions/ideas/suggestions.

Thanks in advance!!

Steve

Your best bet is to space them out in front of the crowd with as many as you can afford. Maybe the neighborhood would spring for something if this will be a regular thing? With that width you would need pretty powerful speakers for people to hear them if you placed them on 1 side or even both sides. Whatever speakers you decide on just make sure they have both an input and output XLR. I believe most do.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Steve--before I get into answering your question on the sound system--I must say that I am concerned with the proximity of the house #9690 and also the two houses on either side of it to your product area. I did not plot it for distance on google earth--but from your pdf plot it seems dangerously close to your shooting area. I assume that you are only using Class C consumer product for your show? You should have a minimum of 70-75 feet per inch of product--ie a 1.75" rack of shells should be 130 ft approx. away from the nearest occupied structure. A NOAB [nine on a board] has 2" inserts and needs even more room--you see where I am going with this--you don't want hot product falling on the neighbors roof and setting his house on fire. Law suits are not something we want to have in our lives!!!!

Now, having said all of that, there are a couple ways to approach your situation.
1. Do NOT run power to power your speakers from your neighbor's house and yours--You most likely will end up with a ground loop [very nasty hum] in the speakers. This is due to the potential difference in grounding between the two houses. There is a long, teckie answer for this, but--trust me--it could give you problems as well as a potential shock hazard.
2. Your biggest issue is, as you perceived--a very wide & very short coverage area. You don't want the speakers right in the peoples faces--this would be a sight line issue as well as an acoustic unpleasant experience for them.
3. The best solution would be to use a setup similar to your "yellow box" idea--but NOT use power from the neighbors house. You can run power from the one side as long as you use heavy enough power cords to not have a line loss...so you would need to run a minimum 12 ga power cord from one speaker to the second speaker. also, a 12 ga. from your house to the shooting table, and another to the first speaker. I can give you more detailed info later as to what you need exactly if you move forward.
4. Running several hundred feet of mike line is not an issue as long as it is a good quality low impedance cable. Again, I can give you more detailed info later as to what you need exactly if you move forward.
5. You only need to cover 130 feet or so from each speaker to the center line of your audience, so the B215D's would do the job as a relatively low cost, but workable speaker investment. Like others have mentioned throughout this thread, you can spend 4 times that much and get QSC's--but if you are budget conscience then the B215D's will get the job done.
6. You will need stands to get them up in the air [not very high--about 5 feet works very well]. I recommend the crank up stands over the straight tripods since I am an old guy with a bad back--and like to work "smarter, not harder'.
So, digest all this & if I can be of help breaking it down to more "specifics", don't hesitate to ask. I'm here to help any way I can.

[ssmith512]

Thank you so much for the info PyroJoe!! Very much appreciated!

Yes, tight site, and thanks for the extra set of eyes. House 9690 is 115ft from the shoot site. House to the north is 135ft and house to the south is 165ft. Because of this, we do NOT have any mortars, shells or NOABS. All 500g and 200g cakes and some single shot comets (all 1.4g). And we went with all cakes that shoot straight up, no fan cakes. And to help some, the product is sitting on a bank that has a slight slope away from house 9690 and towards the pond, so fallout should be towards the pond and not towards house 9690 (assuming zero to light winds of course)

Thanks for pointing out the possible ground loop issue, that did not cross my mind. Heavy gauge extension cords are no problem (I am fortunate I work for a commercial construction company and we have plenty of those laying around). My main concern was running a several hundred foot long XLR (mike?) cable, and you erased that concern. I can just daisy chain multiple XLR cables together to get the length of run needed? I know cables can vary wildly in construction/performance/quality. Any specific specs I should be looking for regarding XLR cables (wire gauge/ohms per foot/ etc.)??

One question on a mixer....what are your thoughts on this little Yamaha unit........https://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG06

Thanks again!!

Steve

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Steve--yes, the Yamaha mixer will work for what you want to do. The down side I see is that you only have the one "summed output" [red stereo output knob] that controls both outputs. Technically, not a problem since you can take one output to the first speaker, and then "daisy chain" to the second speaker. With a larger mixer [with a L & R output control you could feed one speaker from each control and have the ability to send more-or less- power to each speaker individually. But, since your audio will be a summed mono to each speaker you certainly can use this mixer.
Here are some mike cords for you to look at. I have used CBI cords since they first went into business back in the '90s.
https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIMLN?siid=58515
https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIMLN?siid=2565
https://www.zzounds.com/item--CBIMLN?siid=2564
They are heavy duty with Neutrix connectors--good cables. ** 100 ft cords are impossible to roll up--but you can get a couple storage reels at Lowes to roll them up on.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-150-ft-Outlet-Plastic-Cord-Organizer/1002622778

Also, since you have access to contractor grade drop cords, if you can get 10 ga. that would be ideas. I use 10ga /SO for my outside setups--

[Bitzan]

Friends, whatever path you go down if it is only a day or two a year most Guitar Center locations rent PA gear at Very Reasonable rates. I have used them in the past to supplement what I own.

[topshelfpyro]

Friends, whatever path you go down if it is only a day or two a year most Guitar Center locations rent PA gear at Very Reasonable rates. I have used them in the past to supplement what I own.

WOW, I just called my local and its really cheap. I don't know if it varies alot but I was quoted $75 a day for a pair of QSC K12 including stands and cables. That's cheap! I like to own my equipment but almost regretting those other 2 heads. lol

That is a real option if you don't want to invest in your own equipment especially if its 1x or 2x a year. and you don't also have to rent a truck or van to move it around.

That's a great tip John!

[CyphirX]

Friends, whatever path you go down if it is only a day or two a year most Guitar Center locations rent PA gear at Very Reasonable rates. I have used them in the past to supplement what I own.

So potentially a dumb question but would it be smart to pick up a sound mixer just to make sure that there's no worry about interfacing with the rented equipment? My local Guitar Center has 4 different speakers that I could end up with and there wasn't really a reservation to speak of. I'd be coming from either an audiobox or rca cable from the SMPTE kit from Cobra.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

So potentially a dumb question but would it be smart to pick up a sound mixer just to make sure that there's no worry about interfacing with the rented equipment? My local Guitar Center has 4 different speakers that I could end up with and there wasn't really a reservation to speak of. I'd be coming from either an audiobox or rca cable from the SMPTE kit from Cobra.

No such thing as a "dumb question" on here CyphirX. Does your Audiobox have the Balanced XLR outputs in the side? If not, the output of the "stock" AudioBox is a high impedance unbalanced output. In English--you can not run long lines from it to the spealers without major problems.
A small mixer with the XLR[3 pin mike connectors] will let you get the distance from the mixer to the speakers that you will need & will also give you much greater control over your sound.
An AudioBox with the XLR outputs can plug directly into a set of powered speakers but you might not be able to get enough gain to achieve the sound level [volume] you want.
I hope this helps....Any more questions, ask away.

[CyphirX]

No such thing as a "dumb question" on here CyphirX. Does your Audiobox have the Balanced XLR outputs in the side? If not, the output of the "stock" AudioBox is a high impedance unbalanced output. In English--you can not run long lines from it to the spealers without major problems.
A small mixer with the XLR[3 pin mike connectors] will let you get the distance from the mixer to the speakers that you will need & will also give you much greater control over your sound.
An AudioBox with the XLR outputs can plug directly into a set of powered speakers but you might not be able to get enough gain to achieve the sound level [volume] you want.
I hope this helps....Any more questions, ask away.

At the moment, I am using just the smpte kit through cobra so that'll split a timecode on the left or right channel and audio on the other over RCA cables. If I need to go with an audiobox, I could go that route but if I can spend the $350 for the audio box on another module or gear, I'd rather go that direction. If I throw in a sound mixer right next to my audio source though, it's kind of looking like I may save myself from some hassles down the line trying to get a long RCA cable over to a speaker that may not even take the connection.

And thanks for the encouragement!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

At the moment, I am using just the smpte kit through cobra so that'll split a timecode on the left or right channel and audio on the other over RCA cables. If I need to go with an audiobox, I could go that route but if I can spend the $350 for the audio box on another module or gear, I'd rather go that direction. If I throw in a sound mixer right next to my audio source though, it's kind of looking like I may save myself from some hassles down the line trying to get a long RCA cable over to a speaker that may not even take the connection.

And thanks for the encouragement!

Yes--an RCA cable to the mixer--make sure it is RCA to 1/4" Mono to the mixer input [unless the mixer has RCA inputs on one channel--most do not]. Then a mike cord out to the first speaker & another mike cord from the first speaker to the second speaker.
Don't skimp on power cords--make sure you use a heavy cord to get power to the speakers.

[esgrillo]

Yes--an RCA cable to the mixer--make sure it is RCA to 1/4" Mono to the mixer input [unless the mixer has RCA inputs on one channel--most do not]. Then a mike cord out to the first speaker & another mike cord from the first speaker to the second speaker.
Don't skimp on power cords--make sure you use a heavy cord to get power to the speakers.

For the record.... Joe knows audio. Thanks for continuing to be such a great resource. You've helped a lot of people including myself.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

What Ed said!! :cool:

[R. Derrick]

Just wanted to say thanks for all of this info on this forum - so much good knowledge that can help so many others.

Rick - hope your shows are going great! Thanks for posting the original question - I've had the same ones that needing answering and this thread was great.
Joe - Wow! Your knowledge on this matter goes further than I even knew existed. And the subtle details that seem to come to you as a first thought is simply amazing. Thank you for your willingness to answer our questions.

May this thread forever be boosted lol

[displayfireworks1]

For the record.... Joe knows audio. Thanks for continuing to be such a great resource. You've helped a lot of people including myself.

I also want to thank PyroJoeNEPA for knowledge not only with audio but with fireworks manufacturing.