Question about propane flame projectors

[maverick]

Hey everyone, new here. I’m a sound and lighting engineer and I’ve always loved fireworks and other pyro effects, especially when used at concerts. For a while now I’ve been researching those propane powered flame projectors (sometimes called dragons / dragon heads) that you see used at almost every big rock show these days.(see attached picture)http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2031&stc=1 I’m aware of the dangers, regulations, storage and transportation laws and clearance requirements surrounding these devices and their propane tanks. I also know most places require a permit and inspection by a local fire marshal to use these for a concert. I’ve witnessed a few of these inspections at shows I’ve worked or attended.

My question is; would the use of these things for concerts require any sort of ATF license? Obviously they wouldn’t be considered fireworks or explosives, but could they fall under “Articles Pyrotechnic”? The ATF website states they take into account the intended use of the product, and seeing as it would be used for a public pyrotechnic display I could understand how it may fall into that category. Every concert pyrotech I’ve met has an ATF license, but they also work with gerbs, mines, airbursts etc.

I know of a few good manufacturers in the USA who make and train people to use these flame projectors. There are also many cheap chinese units out there that light up a cloud of what is basically tiki torch oil to make a fireball and have little to no safety mechanisms. Obviously I’d avoid those. Most of the good units are simple DMX controlled devices, and if I could provide these effects it could get me a lot more work at concerts. I may eventually pursue an ATF license, but if I just started off with these propane effects I’m not sure if a license is necessary. Sorry for the long post and for sounding like a total newbie, but this seemed like the best place to look for some help from the pros. There seems to be very little information out there on this subject so any help would be appreciated.

[displayfireworks1]

Last I heard anyone can buy those flame projectors without a license. You do not need a ATF license to buy or use them. If you use flame, fire etc in a theatrical setting most areas require some sort of fire department involvement and /or permission to do so.. Those guys that do the pyro in the same setting you are working most likely do not have their own ATF license. I do however suspect they are listed as Employee Possessors on an ATF license for the company they work for.
If you ask those guys using the flame projectors etc what do you have to do to do the same thing they are doing. My guess is they going to tell you all sorts of bullshit why they have what it takes and you don’t . Check with the state regulation for what is necessary for theatrical effects involving flame and special effects. You may in fact need an ATF license to purchase boom type products will call them. But having at ATF license does mean you are licensed to do theatrical special effects. It may only allow you to legally purchase and transport those special products.

[maverick]

Thanks Dave, I appreciate your input. As for the state of Ohio there are no regulations I'm aware of requiring a license to use these things. However, there are requirements for a fire marshal inspection and insurance to use any pyrotechnics at a concert. The way it works is you get a permit from the city and they send you a copy and the fire department a copy and they have to be signed by someone from the local department who inspected the setup on the day of the event. As far as I'm aware it's just like the process of putting on a fireworks show. Luckily in this business the insurance is on an event by event basis and always paid for by the venue or tour production company. I'd just need to get a signed document from whoever is in charge of the show stating that they have the proper insurance, which is something I'm already used to.

Another issue is my line of work can take me all over the country, so I suppose that's where an ATF license could help. If nothing more than as an official looking document that shows the fire departments wherever I may be on any given night that I'm not just some moron trying to burn down the place. I've had trouble finding a place willing to sell these flame projectors to anyone who doesn't have an ATF license or work for an established touring concert or theatrical pyro company. Atlas Special FX, a division of Atlanta Special FX has them and offers training so that's probably my best bet for a place to get them.

Also, you're totally right about the guys doing concert pyro. It's a very small community and they really don't want to let anyone in. So of course they're no help.

[displayfireworks1]

Having an ATF license carries pretend authority I call it. It sounds more important than what it really is for getting permits or permission. Some applications for permits ask for it. There are no special certifications required to purchase these propene devices that I am aware of. One of my advertisers Shogun/Vulcan Fireworks has someone that sells them, when you ready to purchase let me know. Here is a video of the devices in a display.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dalKqD8bYeo

[pyromustang]

If you don't need color the LPG or propane gas ones are cheaper to use. I think the video Dave shows are LPG flame projectors.

[maverick]

Thanks guys, yeah I definitely don't need color, just a regular propane fireball will do. The ones in the video may be a bit too powerful if they're not adjustable, but that's definitely the kind of effect I'm looking for. I'd take a look at what the guy from Shogun/Vulcan has for sure. If you could send me a link or contact info that would be great.

[pyromustang]

Just got done converting a propane flame projectors from 110v to 12v battery. works the same. needed to add to my jeep cannon. now I have Boom and fire.