Need some advice on my ATF License

[PapaRyry01]

Hey pyros! I am really interested in pursuing the ATF License to purchase and shoot 1.3G fireworks. I am planning on buying the Dave's kit and get started with my application, but recently, I've been doing some reading and I'm kind of stumped on what to do.

Backstory: I live in Kansas. I only shoot fireworks during July 4th weekend; however, last 4 years I have been going down to my in-laws place in Texas (where they have this awesome community far away from the main city) and doing 1.4G shows there. We really enjoy doing that and after last show, I was asked, can we go bigger? At first, I said no, because of this and that excuse and getting the license would be too hard etc. Following Dave for so long he has always talked about helping guys get their license and all that and so I decided, why not? Let's go for it. After reading some of the issues with some of the Texas people, recently, having problems getting their license and what not, it made me want to go read up on the Texas laws.

This is part of what I found: https://www.tdi.texas.gov/forms/sfmfireindustry/SF238fwksguide.pdf . Now, from reading this, it doesn't seem bad to request a permit; however, there is a section under types of licenses for "Pryotechnic Operator's License". This is for shooting 1.3G for "public" displays. And I know there has been some talk about "public" vs "private", "commercial" vs "non-commercial", and maybe this is better answered in Dave's kit, but is the Pyrotechnic Operator License the Type-54 or is this something different? If it is different, am I reading this right where you need to have this license, in addition to Type-54, to shoot 1.3G and obtain a permit? Or just obtaining a permit is good enough?

Also, transportation. If I get my license, and able to purchase product, does the 1.3G product have to travel in a type of truck that is certified, or will normal transportation work? I can't remember what post was calling this out but what I remember is if its for non-commercial, you don't need a CDL with a stamp for hazardous materials.

And insurance...ouch, really? I believe I read it has to be no less than 500K worth of insurance? For a big show done in the city, ok sure, I get that, but my little show out in the country with very little around me?

TL;DR
So basically, I live in Kansas. I want to obtain the Type-54 license to shoot 1.3G. The place I currently shoot 1.4G is in Texas. Laws Laws Laws. Getting discouraged. Is the answer, "Shut up and buy Dave's Kit and everything will be fine" or "There is more stuff to deal with, because of Texas, that I need to be prepared for."

Sorry for the novel. Thank you for your patience.

[clr8ter]

PM sent....

[Bazerk]

Ok, if you live in Kansas, you should be focusing on the laws in your state bud. Transportation is not a problem if you are licensed. The permitting is another issue altogether. I personally wouldnt let that part of it even be a factor until you have the license in the first place.

[clr8ter]

But he shoots in TX. So he should pay attention to their laws. Why would you not ask first if, given a 54, a TX shooter's license, and insurance, will they issue a permit for the desired show? Why would you not ask first about insurance, and how much it will cost, and can I afford that? Kinda backwards to get a federal license and then find out later that there's another roadblock keeping you from your goal.

[Bazerk]

But he shoots in TX. So he should pay attention to their laws. Why would you not ask first if, given a 54, a TX shooter's license, and insurance, will they issue a permit for the desired show? Why would you not ask first about insurance, and how much it will cost, and can I afford that? Kinda backwards to get a federal license and then find out later that there's another roadblock keeping you from your goal.

So your assuming he will never shoot any 1.3 in his home state? Are you saying that having the license doesnt make him more credible when trying to obtain said permit and insurance? The license is $100 for 3 years. Whether he shoots in Texas or not is irrelevant. He lives in Kansas therefore has to abide by Kansas rules. If he only wants the 54 so he can shoot in Texas only, then maybe, he should look into that stuff first. Not to promote any wrong doing, but if your on private property shooting your 1.4 and no cops have shown up in 4 years then what makes you feel the need to pull a permit to add a little 1.3 in the mix? I shot a 20 minute 1.4/1.3 show on my property for the 4th of july in the middle of a multimillon dollar community and had no issues what so ever. I dont even know if the cops would have known the difference between the 1.4 and the 1.3 stuff as I didnt exceed any 3in shells. Mostly used 1.3 cakes.

[PapaRyry01]

Gentlemen, thank you for your input. So you are both correct. I live in Kansas, (for now) but I shoot 1.4G in Texas. Somewhere in the future, that may not be the case and shooting in Kansas may be it. I'm not looking to do multiple displays all year, just one on July 4th weekend and call it good. I thought about looking around for clubs and what not but with my busy schedule, it becomes a little difficult. "Well if you want to really get into it you need to get experience" and I totally agree with that. You have to start somewhere right? And maybe down the road, this could open up to be more of a hobby and I can start assisting with others that have Type-54 or clubs or whatever. Looking at price comparisions between 1.4G wholesale and 1.3G and the quality/size of stuff is almost a no brainer but comes some "hoops" to jump through. I think I even read that some dealers won't even sell to you unless you are part of a business or some kind of group, which I can see the pros and cons of that.

I'm not looking for contingency storage, I don't want to buy/build my own magazine (yet). I want to be able to purchase 1.3G, drive to my shoot site, shoot it that day for the show and be done. I think it would be super fun to get with a group of people and do open shoots etc but I don't have bankroll/time to travel, buy product, shoot whenever I feel like it or when its available.

I'm really interested in hearing these "hobby" guys in Texas and their experiences with this sort of thing. Also, I am very appreciative of other's stories and contributions on what to look out for or be prepared to make things happen.

[Bazerk]

I dont think you can get a 54 without a magazine or contingency storage bud. The reason for this is that in the event that you cannot shoot the day you purchase it, you have to be able to safely store it in an approved magazine.

[PapaRyry01]

Dude, good to know. I'll add it to the list of things to look out for.


I dont think you can get a 54 without a magazine or contingency storage bud. The reason for this is that in the event that you cannot shoot the day you purchase it, you have to be able to safely store it in an approved magazine.

[clr8ter]

Uhhh, he said specifically he shoots one show a year in TEXAS. So, given that, it seems to me that Kansas is irrelevant, other than that he lives there. What would it hurt to ask if he could get a permit, insurance, etc., before getting the license? If he goes to the town, and they tell him that no way will they ever give him a permit to shoot a private 1.3 show, or his site is simply not acceptable according to them, the license would become useless to him, now wouldn't it?


Not to promote any wrong doing

But yet, you're encouraging it;



but if your on private property shooting your 1.4 and no cops have shown up in 4 years then what makes you feel the need to pull a permit to add a little 1.3 in the mix? I shot a 20 minute 1.4/1.3 show on my property for the 4th of july in the middle of a multimillon dollar community and had no issues what so ever. I dont even know if the cops would have known the difference between the 1.4 and the 1.3 stuff as I didnt exceed any 3in shells. Mostly used 1.3 cakes.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's simply NOT legal.

[chriskrc]

Dude, good to know. I'll add it to the list of things to look out for.

If you don't have your own magazine you must have a letter of contingency storage to apply for the type 54. That is a requirement.

[clr8ter]

It seems like there could be decent money to be made for someone with a mag and some extra space...

[Bazerk]

Uhhh, he said specifically he shoots one show a year in TEXAS. So, given that, it seems to me that Kansas is irrelevant, other than that he lives there. What would it hurt to ask if he could get a permit, insurance, etc., before getting the license? If he goes to the town, and they tell him that no way will they ever give him a permit to shoot a private 1.3 show, or his site is simply not acceptable according to them, the license would become useless to him, now wouldn't it?



But yet, you're encouraging it;




Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's simply NOT legal.

Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that if one is on private property and have permission by the property owner, then in some states a permit is not required.

[clr8ter]

Mmm, sounds doubtful. Anyone else?

[Pyro Paul]

In Kansas, one only needs to work 3 commercial (1.3) shoots and have it documented. Then apply to the state fire marshal to take the test over nfpa 1123 (open book) and get a passing score. I have talked with the fire chief (ahj) in my county and he said I need only to call him when I plan to shoot and ask and he would give the ok if conditions and manning were acceptable. From the sound of things I believe he likes to watch good fireworks. Some counties are better than others for this activity. I received a contingency storage letter from the fireworks wholesaler that I do my 1.4 business with that states if I purchase 1.3 from them and unforseen circumstances prevent the firing of the product that they would store it until I could safely fire it. It's about a 90 min drive from my house which is a reasonable distance. ATM I'm working with the small town I live in to be able to obtain a permit to do close proximity 1.3 in my back yard for which they have no process at the present. So other than a permit in town I have everything nailed down as far as firing 1.3 legally in the state of Kansas and being able to obtain a type 54. I hope this helps at least from the Kansas perspective. As far as Texas is concerned if you're firing stuff off out in the country, get in touch with the fire chief in that county. It might help you to understand what you need to do. I believe if it is a private display for family that a lot of laws and requirements that apply to public displays aren't in play. It does help a lot to talk to te AHJ in the location that you plan to fire 1.3 from. As far as transportation, I would talk to the distributor that you plan to purchase from. If there are special requirements for transporting they would know. From my experience, the wholesaler I deal with will load the product in my private automobile, if this were an issue they would have said so or not loaded it as they would stand a chance of losing their credentials. I find that distributors of pyro are very knowledgeable about laws and regulations and require documentation for everything to cover their backside. If it were illegal to transport I find it highly unlikely that they would load it in my private automobile. Hope this helps a little...

[clr8ter]

Wow. Sounds like Kansas is basically handing out pyro licenses.

[Bazerk]

Wow. Sounds like Kansas is basically handing out pyro licenses.

You sir, are a douche. :)

[clr8ter]

Well, look at it from the NH POV; 10 documented shows. Then you take a closed book test. Then you pay your fees. This only entitles you to be a lead tech. If you want your own show you need insurance, an approved site, permit, and fire dept. coverage. Usually 2 guys, for the entire time product is on site. That's not free, either. The fact that it's on your property makes no difference, either.
I wish NH was as free handing them out. But, on the other hand, I could find you many people in the business who say that even the hoops NH people have to jump through is not enough, safety-wise.
I meant nothing negative by my comment, but realistically, you have to admit, it's a hand out. (I never understood the point of an open book test.)

[Bazerk]

Well, look at it from the NH POV; 10 documented shows. Then you take a closed book test. Then you pay your fees. This only entitles you to be a lead tech. If you want your own show you need insurance, an approved site, permit, and fire dept. coverage. Usually 2 guys, for the entire time product is on site. That's not free, either. The fact that it's on your property makes no difference, either.
I wish NH was as free handing them out. But, on the other hand, I could find you many people in the business who say that even the hoops NH people have to jump through is not enough, safety-wise.
I meant nothing negative by my comment, but realistically, you have to admit, it's a hand out. (I never understood the point of an open book test.)

Maybe you should be bitter at your state laws instead of everyone else man. Hell, you would be blown away about how easy it is to get in FL. I had to have approved storage or a contingency letter, a verbal interview with the atf and have no felony's on my record and that was it. Its was obviously easier than Kansas is. In saying that, I wonder what the numbers are on accidents due to lack of safety there are for people who have the 54 license. I can tell you that despite how easy it was for me to get, I have had zero safety issues in any of my dealings with any types of fireworks. The people who get hurt are the ones who get complacent and too comfortable with them. The license has nothing to do with that ya know?

[clr8ter]

I beg to differ. With the big stuff, shit happens. I have seen a bunch of things happen recently that did not result in injuries, but easily could have. Malfunctions, mostly.

[Bazerk]

I beg to differ. With the big stuff, shit happens. I have seen a bunch of things happen recently that did not result in injuries, but easily could have. Malfunctions, mostly.

I agree, but would having taken a safety course or whatever other avenues that NH requires, have prevented the malfunction in the first place? I would also be willing to bet that more injuries and mishaps occur with the 1.4 stuff than with the 1.3. I would image that the people going for the 1.3 usually have a pretty good understanding of fireworks in general which would also aid in preventing accidents don't you think?

[clr8ter]

Well, if you're too complacent & comfortable, that would apply to both 1.4 & 1.3, it seems. They are basically the same, except for the power, I suppose. Though, I'm not sure what a 54 would change in the accident area. To my knowledge, it has nothing to do with safety...

[Bazerk]

Well, if you're too complacent & comfortable, that would apply to both 1.4 & 1.3, it seems. They are basically the same, except for the power, I suppose. Though, I'm not sure what a 54 would change in the accident area. To my knowledge, it has nothing to do with safety...

I think the only thing that makes it 1.3 is the amount of powder they are allowed to contain in it. Obviously 1.4 is 500g max but 1.3 does not have that restriction.

[Northern Sky]

I agree, but would having taken a safety course or whatever other avenues that NH requires, have prevented the malfunction in the first place? I would also be willing to bet that more injuries and mishaps occur with the 1.4 stuff than with the 1.3. I would image that the people going for the 1.3 usually have a pretty good understanding of fireworks in general which would also aid in preventing accidents don't you think?


Training has everything to do with it. If there is an accident with 1.4 you're on YouTube as an epic fail. If that same accident is with 1.3 you're on the evening news and on here.

how do you think accidents are prevented or minimalized?

[ras1986]

Training has everything to do with it. If there is an accident with 1.4 you're on YouTube as an epic fail. If that same accident is with 1.3 you're on the evening news and on here.

how do you think accidents are prevented or minimalized?

Now that's just crap..... seriously... the stuff that makes the news is CREWS that blow them selves up by not using caution with electric match. As much black market 1.3 on the market.... you NEVER see people talking about the one guy who killed himself... 1.3 accidents are almost always documented as a COMPANY and not the one guy with a 54 doing a show. Bazerk called it.... guys like us know how dangerous 1.3 is and you CAN watch enough videos online to know what to do safely. Honestly I think a smart person can learn more about safely shooting fireworks from you tube than any stupid ass pgi course. These safety courses are a joke. I think the government needs to tell me how to shoot fireworks as much as they need to tell me how much soda I can drink.... what a joke.....

[Northern Sky]

Sorry you must have confused me saying training as PGI training. You watch your YouTube videos and when you think you know it all I'll pick up where they left off.

[GulfPyro]

Where do you shoot in Texas?