"dark salutes"

[californiapyro]

in one of dave's rocket videos, the nameless rocketman sends up a few rockets with "dark salutes" on them; all noise and no flash whatsoever. I cant find a dark flash formula anywhere, and i was wondering if anyone did. thanks!

[BJV1]

Dark Salutes

4 PPW - Potassium Chlorate
1 PPW - Sulfur
1 PPW - Antimony(III) Sulfide.
+1% - Barium Carbonate

PPW= Parts per Weight
BJV1

[californiapyro]

Dark Salutes

4 PPW - Potassium Chlorate
1 PPW - Sulfur
1 PPW - Antimony(III) Sulfide.
+1% - Barium Carbonate

PPW= Parts per Weight
BJV1

thank you very much! may i ask where this formula comes from? also this is antimony trisulfide, or antimony sulfide?

[Ralph]

its antimony trisulfide and I highly recommend you do not make this a whistle mixture made with out any sodium salts is quite close to giving no light and no were near as sensitive as this this type of composition is as sensitive as a match being pressed up against a match box

here is a quote from a highly respect rocket man on APC when this was being discussed there "All I know is that I need a good dozen years behind me yet before I am going to mess with this stuff... if ever. "

I would recomend you only make this formula if in life you have little left to live for accept your pyrotechnics

[californiapyro]

im not quite sure that's accurate, my potassium chlorate/potassium benzoate whistle mix gives off quite a bit of light. do you know of a safer formula?

[Ralph]

In a salute there isnt that much light given off especially not from a distance a few % charcoal can reduce the light output as can making a strong casing that is still intact the moment all the fuel is burned up. either way it being only a touch darker isnt really worth loosing fingers over because the dark report formula is rediculosly sensitive

[tcape]

Ralph, I PM'd you, but I also want to publicly thank you for discouraging the potentially unsafe practices that have been presented here on PyroTalk. People want to dig into things they shouldn't be sticking their hands into and it can become a literally deadly situation. Again, thanks for discouraging it.

[Shig357]

Nearly all the salutes I've seen use flash and make a nice white cloud of smoke, but every once in a while I see a salute shell that makes a thick black cloud of smoke. Does anyone know the composition of salutes that make black smoke?

[copper acetoarsenite]

this is a very long story....i'll have to talk abouth this later..it's quite intensive a subject...but if you all want i'll discuss 'Flash' trust me you'll love it...i'm really a horrendous nerd...lol

[copper acetoarsenite]

I would just like to address one issue first; the following is from got. I will not say who sent it think the words in my response is self evident...I just want to get comfortable to write


Don't worry I'm not a muppet..I'm a master...I'm saving lives, If Mr. Desafey has an issue with this thread I'll discuss it in privaate with him...best they hear this from an expert if their gonna do it...

Cuidete Pai!

[copper acetoarsenite]

I'm happy to address anyone's concerns in this thread...please feel free to post I'm very approachable..I was a professor...

[Pyro-T]

3 Falcanelli recipes for Dark Salute comp:

A/B/C
Potassium Chlorate 1 / 4 / 3
Antimony Sulfide 1 / 1 / 2
Sulfur - / 1 / 1

Note:
Comps are shock- and friction sensitve.
Mix ingredients with care at safe distance.

[copper acetoarsenite]

lets not get ahead of ourselves..I have a long way to go before formulas...i have lots of boring physics and chemistry to discuss...for our purpose we are going to consider flash as a high explosive...I will cover this systematically...you wont need 'college' for understanding this..but I an a very pedantic person...I can not cover this topic in one post...but the first few topics..the last thing I'll discuss os formulation, this dscussion that I'm taking my time to present will not be found on the internet or in any one book..this will be boring this will be intense...in the end I hope to give guidance for SAFE formulations that do all of the 'effects' you want...but I ca not cover that with out priciples...also lastly I'll give guidance for how to safely use small quantities for very dynamic effects..i'll cover microstar salutes and colored flashes, as well as safety, the law and other topics..if there is something you don't understand, please tell me...feel free to ask questions at any poing...if you're not serious you'll groww very very board..this is for REAL pyrotechnists and artists..I'll also give appriate references..not he assholes cook book...not the internet...forget that shit!...this is not a game..you want to play with flash...you need this...to be a real artise if you can get throught this than anyother things I say about fireworks is childs play!!! I make PhD aeronautical engineers very very tired!...so for all intents and purposes, no one in the world can tell you what I'm going to say this came from YEARS of study in explosives, and I'm simplifying everything for the non-engineer to be useful..easier than Dr. Shimizu..i don't like talking over people's heads...we all can be face to face


3CuO*As2O3*Cu(CH3COOH)2

that's my name..:-D

[copper acetoarsenite]

I wont say anything here that I wont tell my 15 yo old Baby boy Julian..who will, at 100 lbs can kill most grown men in self defense with his bare hands....except his 150 lb papa..me

[copper acetoarsenite]

I want to address why I don't put this on passfire..those folks there know what they are doing!..Al K. knows what he is doing...the folks here don't...if those at Passfire would like to join here they may...the builders here need this information...I am very fond of the people here already...they don't know what they are doing...I don't want to see them die!!!...I don't do anything illegal, so I'm not violating laws...bombs are easy..this wont stop the pyschopaths ..they are superficial people, the devil is a liar!...this is useless for 'krewls'...this is information for artists...i want my fireworks back..I want to see us all grow big and small...Dave is doing so much..I see his point...if anyone deserves..having this info on their site it is him...they can't lock us up, best to concentrate on the real terrorist...I can build nuclear fission weapons in my back yard!...I wont say a word about that...this is for the artists, who need to be informed how to do this..safely!

[copper acetoarsenite]

and plus quite honestly Puerto-Ricans have big mouths..I can only be stopped if Mr. Desafey objects to this thread...this is his ship, his rules, his dime, his time..he' the captain here...I'll do what he wishes while I'm a guest on his site...j'ai venue ici pour epater les bourgeoisie...:-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WINDtlPXmmE

[Northern Sky]

I am just curious where these dark salutes should be made?

Where should raw materials be stored?

How should compounds be stored once they are mixed and for how long.

Where they can be used, by whom?

When does manufacture's license come into play with what you are going to teach?

What is the guideline for how much material can be used at any given time.

What if any are the penalties if any of this is done incorrectly?

Are there suggestions what to tell family members, neighbors, local, state or federal officials if questioned by any of them?

[copper acetoarsenite]

Dark salutes belong at the end not the beginning they can be made with two component perchlorate flash...i'm not making my hard work so easy either...a long lecture starting with the laws of thermodynamics and state and path functions, the meaning of the force of explosives [explained] detonation and deflagration confinement..flash 'chemicals'..forbidden chemicals..yes the law too for those who want to get legal..

[Pyro-T]

Dark salute comp can be used as break in Crossette stars.
It will break the star without a bright disturbing flash.

[copper acetoarsenite]

dark salute comp is exremely dangerous, you can be killed the people who handle it are risking their lives, it not a good thing..even the passfire masters...I want to substiute these things for safe mixes...

[Chris H]

There are other formulations and tricks that can be used to disguise the bright flash from other break charges. Things such as blending a more conventional metal based flash powder with granular BP or sawdust can be enough to hide the bright flash in many stars. The real test of a substitute's utility will be when breaking charcoal crossettes. These are the dimmest effects, and thus most prone to being ruined by a distracting bright flash.

Still, the fact of the matter is that dark flash compositions, such as quoted above from Fulcanelli, are still the standard by which all things are judged upon. While the compositions are indeed sensitive, they really don't burn all that violently out in the open, and can be used safely if the practitioner has a solid understanding of what they're doing. Additionally, for crossettes at least, the amount of composition required is actually relatively small. They need to be confined to do their job. I've done some work myself in coming up with new compositions to replace these "death mixes". The replacements work well, but I still use the original formulas most of the time. My "safer" mixtures of combinations of potassium perchlorate, potassium benzoate, sulfur, and antimony trisulfide work but really are still sensitive enough that they don't offer that great of an alternative.

Making full sized dark salutes, like you sometimes see in old fashioned hammer shells or in some maltese videos I've found is more a matter of contrasting them against a very bright effect than it is about making them truly dark.

[copper acetoarsenite]

I honestly don't think we should be necessarily..following the Maltese, they are incredible Artists..but risky chemists!!!

Here, cuz I've been procrastinating..secret to dark flash?=heavy confinement=engineering...sure the 'traditional formula' does it easier...but there are better, safer ways they just require more thought and understanding of basic principles of detonation and deflagration and the concept of the force of explosives..lots of calculus involved..but you don't need math to understand it qualitatively...but try telling that to Dr. Shimizu..he was too much of a genius to be understood..he alone takes years of study to understand, his books/writings and I've read them all except one..which is really more of a story 'Hanabi'..you simply must make the explosive burn out before the case breaks...there there's your dark flash..if YOU tried it it wont work lol...want to know how to doit?...well listen to what I say..I've just helped you with nothing...LOL
I promise I will write something today!!!..later need like three pots of coffee first...LOL

[copper acetoarsenite]

Here's a song to keep y'all entertained..while I have my coffee..LOL
BTW...nuclear explosives are no different than fireworks..except that fireworks are much harder, and more dangerous to work with!
but Trust me!...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7miRCLeFSJo

I think they make you visit youtube for that one..love you tube!..I used the San diego fireworks show ..to make a joke about thermodynamics!..you all wouldn't find it funny yet tho...:-D

[copper acetoarsenite]

Let's start with matter and energy,..matter and energy are two sides of the same coin...matter can be converted in part to energy, but all of the energy in matter is converted to energy...one example of a matter energy conversion is coal---> electricity
obviously one can see it's not a direct conversion...energy is the capacity to do work
...work and energy are also two sides of the same coin...in fact both matter and energy can not be created or destroyed...this is called the law of 'conservation of energy'...
This is the first law of thermodynamics...just for simplicity we'll only need to consider when dealing with energetic material...heat [abbreviated 'q' and work...'w'

mathematically, for our purposes, the first law is is written Total energy=heat+work or q+w ...in explosives we consider only something called 'pressure volume' work 'PVwork'

Work=force*distance [all types of work] and Pressure=force/area, volume =length^3

so just considering the units..work= Newtons/meter/meters^2 *distance=I'll do the math Force*distance... or force/area *length [distance]=pressure*volume

rearanging the PVwork equation and solving for force =Work/distance...so the force of anything even explosives is Work/length...if work=P*V and pressure=force/area
I ncan write that the force of explosives assuming all the work is done on the surrounding media is =pressure*area=work/length...this is the real meaning of the force of explosives!...that's all...but there still more that's enuf for all of us too ..Professors are worst procrastinators ever!..LOL
Let's chill now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmF6EaQFIQg

[copper acetoarsenite]

I just wanna know if everyone reading understands...this gets worse..please feel free to ask questions :-D

[copper acetoarsenite]

While everyone is waiting I've been a little busy..later today..I love this stuff...but its more difficult to explain to non-specialists...I have to think alot..teaching is very hard!!! If I came with this full blast it would be like drinking from a fire hose...Having already been dressed in full bunker gear once, when one of my friends and I were drinking in the firedepartments bar...the fire department's equipment is heavy duty...you don't want to drink from their hoses...LOL!!!!!!

[copper acetoarsenite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNN7NTl83cI

[copper acetoarsenite]

Here's the words!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6HIcNwO-5Y

[copper acetoarsenite]

I will continue this soon..in the meantime for your enjoyment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awax48X8YlU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV83n9aVQ5c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfQA1DaNoBI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_h-saU6gNA

[copper acetoarsenite]

While I'm still procrasinating!!..The BEST drummer in history...completely unexcelled Gene Krupa!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcqoB_QICxA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhhkWJkbxb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8yDGLZv-LM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ODrTAqBZc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8XlZWqb7FA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTu95TpuFmk

[copper acetoarsenite]

I'm too beat to really go into technical tonite..but I will discuss Flash safety briefly..the Dutch are extremely meticulous people...they once forgot to follow a few simple safety rules..but see it wasn't the 1.3G non-salute fireworks that really killed the cameraman...it was the Flash...read up on this incident...one of the worst disasters in fireworks history..'Enscedde'..if I spelled it correctly... almost leveled the town...watch till the end...RIP!!!
this is a sad video..in so many ways
Flash..still wanna play????


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifm9BKf5ZbE

[copper acetoarsenite]

Although to be honest...I've always felt there was a bit of 'activism' going on with that one..but as I don;t have enough details...I can't say..but they got their laws for tranporting shellms over 10 inches as high explosives...puts people out of business, and people make tons of money..even 'criminals' on this scheme..so kill 22 people, destroy homes everyone wins...I wont tell you about what happens in the airline industry..I don't want you to be afraid to fly..don't worry...it's safe..but a few plane crashes are financially great for airlines... make big buck for the airline after the insurance is paid..check out alaska airlines md-80 crashLOL...Flash is our only real high explosive...so what's a high explosive...those smartypants that go to wiki [which is extremely superficial-and sometimes wrong] will say HEX exhiibit the Munroe effect..to that I say 'yeah and...and are you sure...do you know what the 'Munroe effect' is? No? then shut up cuz you don't know what ur talking about...if it blows up like the movies it's a high explosive...if if burns fast like fireworks exploding it's not...all explosives can be extremely destructive though...Shimizu agrees with my definition
sort of like the supreme court's interpretation of 'lewd and lascivious' they weren't talking about porn BTW..worse stuff like snuff films and shit...a high explosive is something that has a big bang and pretty destuctive shock waves...so what are shock waves...You all ain't ready yet for that I have more physics to talk about..plus I'm trying to stop everyone from fearing explosives...as I've seen Joyce Knepp write on numerous occasions.."don't Fear the Firework"!!!..she's right..don't fear explosives either..if you do ur in the wrong place...hehehe

[copper acetoarsenite]

For those who make think they know where I'm going with this..i.e the wiki engineers..where here's the real BASIC INTRODUCTION to shock waves I'm being very superficial here...this discussion as I point out to all the flight test engineer and such is very superficial..HEX shockwave propagation is MUCH more involved...I thought I may go too far above these people's heads...LOL...BTW Nature laughs at complex mathematics..it's ALL estimations!!!
here for the wiki scholars..finish it for me only 300 pages to go! hehehe :evil:
Sonic velocity:
Small pressure disturbances within a specific control volume [a discrete region within an open thermodynamic system i.e a local environment enclosing your wave] propagate at sonic velocity 'a' in air [generally sonic velocity in any medium is 'c'] this discussion does not apply to blast waves and strong shock waves

if one were to imagine themselves as a stationary observer, observing the control volume that contains the propagating wave front within a pipe one would see a steady state process and would one see that sound waves move as a longitudinal wave comprised of a series of rarefactions and compressions....

Now if one were to travel with the wave--- assuming that wave propagates left to right then the air [fluid] at the right of the control volume would appear to be moving toward the wavefront at sonic velocity 'a' and the air to the left will b moving away from at a speed a-dv ( were 'v' is the velocity at which the wave moves to the left away from the observer)---a rarefaction

Since fluid is composed of matter and matter has mass....and matter cannot be created or destroyed.... the mass at the left of the wave must equal the mass at the right so we achieve as mass balance of ml=mr

I can write this as rhoAa=(rho+drho)A(a-dv) A is the cross sectional area of the control volume within the pipe...since it appears on both sides, it cancels and one is left with...a*d(rho)-rhodv=0 ....1

So, one assumes that no heat or work crosses the wavefront boundary so there no change in potential energy within the propagating wave... so we achieve energy balance...if you recall the quantity 'H' from thermodynamics which represents total energy (U+e) where U=internal energy e is other types of energy and work---without going into the math--- energy balance Uleft =Uright...this is represented by dH-adv...which solves to H+a^2/2 =(h+dh)+(a-dv)^2 ...2

due to negligible changes in pressure or temperature...the wave propagation is adiabatic AND isoentropic (assumed)....if you recall that dG =h-TdS where 'S' in the entropy...then you'll see that for an isoentropic flow TdS=0....one ends up with dH =dP/rh0....3...the d is a script delta indicating partial differential equations...which I can't write here

Combining relations 1,2 and3 one obtains a^2 =(dP/dRho)s the little 's' indicates an isoentropic process ....using "Maxwell relations" I can actually write this as a^2=k(dP/drho)T where k=ratio of specific heats, so and of course recalling that P=rhoRT and using that to solve the highlighted differential equation a^2 =k(dP/drho)T =k[ drhoRT/drho]T.=kRT..note because this involves partial differential equations, I did not show the intermediate steps.... solving it one finally obtains

a =(kRT)^.5

this explains not only why the speed of sound depends solely on temperature but it also explains why an isoentropic flow is assumed...it really doesn't get any easier than this...QED!

[copper acetoarsenite]

Now lets take a break and we'll resume on thermodynamic later...many of those early scientists commited suicide cuz of thermodynamics..like Gibbs, the father of chemical thermodynamics..do ask questions if you have them just try to stay on topic..unlike me LOL!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eSN8Cwit_s

[copper acetoarsenite]

For those with a more classical taste..From 'Gianni Schichi' O mio babbino caro Ms Callas is simply amazing!!! MOST People are so beautiful and smart and strong..something's told us we are not tho..LIE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxy4qrnKwVo

[copper acetoarsenite]

if Laquil decides to divulge more great techniques..that's his wish..he's a great master!!

[copper acetoarsenite]

sorry about such a long 'vacation'...several things are going on at once plus I don't have any electrcity or internet at my home...NY has been severely affected by hurricane Sandy...I will like to continue this discussion as soon as possible...my home was not damagede but i'm without power ...i just pray for those whose homes were damaged, or those killed by this tragic storm...I'm quite busy with other matters that I can not really discuss also...I'd like to continue with the discussion of Shimizu's equation as it explians alot about explosives asap...but the principles behind the derivation are very involved...and I'm trying to avoid advanced math...please bear with me...I have much going on...thgankyou all for your patience

Neil...

[copper acetoarsenite]

I am posting from my cell phone so please forgive my errors I just wanted to post why salutes are hex the main reason. Is that detonation of one salute will initiate the sympathetic detonation of the others whereas 1.3 g pieces will
Generally ignite in succession .nonsalute fireworks are classed as a mass projection/fire hazard...this. is the main reason why bulk salute storage is taken. So seriously by the batf ..
Also for those who know what this term refers to they naturally must exhibit the '"munroe effect" salute are without doubt high explosive....with some mixtures approaching the quantitatively sensitivity of primary initiating explosives such lead azide or mercury fulminate ...this is especially true with magnesium magnalium flash or those which are of sulphur and chlorate perchlorate mixtures..this information is found in all fireworks litturature for those attempting color flash be warned that without grounding and other precautions such as the addition of graphite diaper mixing etc...they are quite simply too dangerous ...but despite all possible precautions there's simply no way to militate against all danger ...but you must be prepared at all times for death and injury in the fireworks just be aware that the possibility is always on the table ...I myself feel blessed to still be alive.....make fireworks with a continual eye upon heaven

[jknepp1954]

Copper - you are back on here - but you really have not learned your lesson...
SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[copper acetoarsenite]

Lol....some folks just never learn I must be classified as utterly incorrigible
God bless you :-)

[displayfireworks1]

Parties over, shame, under all that tangential talk is some pyrotechnic knowledge. I sent him a message that pyrotalk forums may not be what he is looking for. Let’s just move on from here.