BATFE Type 54 User License Question

[firefighter5145]

Helping a friend through the process of getting his BATFE Type 54 license and he received an email asking for the information shown in the screenshot. I went through the process 3 years ago and never had an issue with these items. I was of the understanding the feds advise you to be aware of state, county, and local laws involving explosives but have no say as they have no jurisdiction in the matter. Can anyone provide any background on changes or is this something that they are wrong on?

[Salutecake]

This is a good one for Dave. Sounds to me like some Inspector is puffing out his or her chest.

[BMoore]

Dave likes to respond to these types of questions directly so I won't share how I would respond. But no, nothing has changed. I think a lot of these inspectors are truly just uninformed and make poor assumptions. Remember, in their jobs they spend almost all of their time dealing with firearm issues. Explosives is a very small percentage of their work and we hobbyists make up a much smaller percentage of that already small percentage. The ATF does consider a Type 54 to be a type of business license so they go down a rabbit hole of business licensing requirements which are not applicable. I can almost guarantee that this inspector believes that you are trying to establish a display fireworks company.

[displayfireworks1]

This is a good one and example of this sort of thing still exist. They usually do not put it in writing and just verbally tell you this sort of thing.
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Can you tell there is not a lot of fireworks hobby activity in the State of Delaware . They are misinformed. For some reason I am thinking the ATF Explosive Operations in that part of the country covers multiple states. The ATF user of display fireworks permit is not contingent upon any of those things listed. First off is this applicant a contingency storage applicant or does he have his own magazine?

[firefighter5145]

Thanks for replying Dave. He is using contingency storage plan (same as I did and was approved for 3 years ago) through a letter from President of the wholesaler out of PA.

[displayfireworks1]

Here comes the time line game. I would politely verbally tell the Inspector on this he is mistaken placing those requirements on the application approval denial process. I would suggest he call the Pittsburgh Pa ATF explosive operations for guidance. I am afraid if you tell him to check with his supervisor he is most likely misinformed also. If a magazine was involved then there is a piece of real estate to argue over but on a contingency and no on site storage , nothing to argue about. He is trying to enforce state, city and county regulations which is not with the requirements.
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You friend will meet with resistance initially when he tells them all of this . Don’t expect them to buy right into it. Then they may try to get him to withdraw the application voluntarily. Please tell him not to do that. If the rest of application including the contingency are in order, at the end of the 90 day period they are going to have to make a decision to approve or deny. If they deny they are going to have to state the reason. And the reason is not going to be one of those things listed in that written communication.
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This reminds me of Ohio. Under very similar circumstances , only they wanted to see an Ohio State shooter certificate or whatever the hell its called. Then they would get the applicant to voluntarily withdraw the application. Most did until I came and along. It took one brave applicant in that state to basically tell them , I am not getting that shooter certificate and I am not withdrawing the application. Either approve it or deny it. At the end of the 90 day period they issued the license. Same as Texas , Tennessee and a few other states. We will add Delaware to that list in the next 60 days.
I am not 100% on this but I suspect before they consider to deny an application , they run it past legal and I suspect legal gives them guidance. From what I see legal guides them pretty well. Keep us posted on this.

[BMoore]

I think for the first pass I would answer the questions and see how he or she responds. From there you can elevate it. My answers would be as follows:

1) I am a hobbyist and have no intention of operating a fireworks business. I will not be in commerce and seek this permit for private enjoyment only. My understanding is that this does not meet the definition of a Delaware business and thus a business license should not be required.

2) As a non-business, I do not have agreements to shoot in any particular jurisdiction. I intend to use my permit in situations where I am able to meet legal requirements, possibly including states where a shooter's permit is not required. In the event that I intend to shoot in a jurisdiction where state or local permits are required, I will pursue that permitting in order to be in full compliance with the laws and regulations in that jurisdiction.

3) As explained in #1 above, I will not be operating a business nor will I be storing explosives at my residence. Therefore, a conditional use permit for business purposes should not be applicable.

4) You do have my permission to make minor corrections to my application provided that I am informed of those corrections and given the opportunity to approve or deny any such changes before processing.

[displayfireworks1]

I had to look where Delaware is again. LOL now I remember when you were kid and had that wooden puzzle of United States and each state cut out, you had to sure you didn’t lose that little Delaware piece. Seemed like it never fit right either and had to be the last state you put it. Texas was always the first piece to put in first. LOL
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I would not argue each of the points he listed, then that changes them from not required to debatable, giving them some validation. Those points listed may actually have some validity but not in this context of process. It is not a part of the application process is all you need to address.
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That part about giving permission to make minor corrections. Most Inspectors may do this in your presence and have you initial it in agreement. Be sure to tell you friend not to voluntarily withdraw the application. I tell people that and they still do it. Then its, they didn’t deny anything , you did it. Either way you get your money back. Its actually a Shall Issue license as opposed to a May Issue license last I heard as long as the requirements are met. This should be a fun one to follow to outcome.

[Salutecake]

I never saw those requirement on the application, so wouldn't they be on the application if they really needed the answers.

And a little off the topic but related, Unless things changed, Delaware has a state shooters lic, I think you just register for the test pay the fee, and then tke the test. The test if I remember is not any more difficult and very similar to the PGI course and test.

[BMoore]

I never saw those requirement on the application, so wouldn't they be on the application if they really needed the answers


The question that is on the application that gives rise to some of this stuff is "Is a state or local license or permit required for explosive business and/or operations?" My understanding is that no matter how you answer that question all the AFT is supposed to do is to inform you of state law. It is not supposed to be a prerequisite, but rather an acknowledgement. I can see how an inexperienced inspector can make that leap.

At the end of the day, the Orange Book is the bible. If the requirement isn't discussed in the Orange Book, it is not a requirement.

[displayfireworks1]

What that Inspector is stating is more like legal business advice.
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I hate to side track the original post, but here is the Delaware shooter guide lines and testing. Certainly reasonable fee of $25.00 . Once you pass the test you just keep sending in the $25.00 every two years to renew, no retesting. There are 50 questions. Problem is , it is a paper test and you have to report in person to take it. Which may be common for many states. You would think these test would be turned over to nationwide computer testing companies and their locations throughout the country. These display companies would not like that it would bring in too much competition.
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Imagine if a company like Pyrotecnico or Zambelli etc wanted to try to sell a display in that state , if they did not have a shooters living in that state , they would have to send one of their own people to drive or fly there ,hotel etc. just to take the test. I would say if you lived in that state and had that license in addition could put a crew together, it would be a valuable thing to a competing display company.
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https://statefiremarshal.delaware.gov/place-assemblies-special-permits/fireworks-display-permits-licensing/

[Salutecake]

Well I do a shoot in my community every 4th as a hobbyist and like you my council has not rules -- we use a different towns fire department and all the chief as said to me over the years that he can't sanction them, but always sends a fire truck for the event and he and his family watches the show. Now I partically act in the "ask for forgiveness mode" rather than ask why he can't sanction them, and I would probably think because they are not in a commercial setting but I really don't know.
Second part of this, I asked our head of council is there any paperwork he can give me for if and when the cops show up, (they show up watch the show and then leave) and he gave me a piece of paper (sorry I can't find it right now) that basically says that the borough is not responsible if anything happens. But nothing that says you can't do it.

Me - I would try it and tell whoever of if anyone ever shows up that your town said it was ok and no paperwork is needed.

I am only thinking that with 20 acres you live in the sticks or farm land around. I would tell your neighbors (not ask) that this Saturday at 9 I am going to shoot some big fireworks off - just out of respect for any animals they might have. I though my Amish neighbors would give me a hard time - but they also come out to watch! lol.

That's my 2 cents, I'm not sure if it helps and this is only my situation.

Sorry about the grammer - spell checking has been goofing me up after a recent update.

Good luck

[firefighter5145]

7189 Here is the latest he received back from the ATf.

[displayfireworks1]

We don’t get to see the applicants prior response to the Inspector.
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This dude is funny. Now he checking with more and more county people. Pretty soon he is going to want a letter from applicants high school principal and kindergarten conduct rating. LOL
The good news is he is setting up an interview date. I hope your guy does not withdraw that application and/or promise to provide anything not listed on the application. If what you are telling is correct, Nothing else needs done expect to force a decision. If all goes well he is actually paving the way for future applicants in the part of the country.
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Back in 2012 I was able to receive a list of every ATF Display Fireworks license in United States. It was all coded, I paid a Microsoft Excel expert to organize it by state and county. I’ll have to see if I still have it. While it is now dated , it should still provide a good representation of current license holders. Pennsylvania was in the hundreds somewhere around 400 plus. If there are more than ten ATF Display Fireworks license holders in the State of Delaware I will be shocked. This all as to be so new to them.

There also something called “Forfeit the application” which one of the Inspectors in Texas used inappropriately. He used it as do this unnecessary stuff I am telling you (Verbally only) or I will “Forfeit your application” That process is more around you break off contact , they can’t find you or you do not respond to emails or calls and again or YOU requested it. I should add that didn't work in Texas , my guy got licensed.
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You know why he resubmitted that county requested he mention , because when they received it the first time , they probably went why is he even asking us this and/or there is no definitive legal answer to his question. Just out of courtesy applicant probably should let his old principal know to expect an email soon

[Salutecake]

Well to me that letter is almost like saving face, because he is setting up the interview. I don't think he would go through all that interview process and then deny the application or process.

Hang in there and like Dave says, let them force the decision if it leads to that.

[BMoore]

Yeah, he knows he was wrong. I wish we could see your friend's response that prompted this, but clearly it was effective because at a minimum this has you might be right vibe. I agree that he wouldn't be scheduling an interview if he had any real belief that this can't move forward.

[displayfireworks1]

This is great for me because I have been needing something to get excited about and look forward to in this 1.3 sector of pyro. When I hear about someone getting an ATF fireworks license in one of these less common pyro states I vicariously feel like I got licensed also. I probably want him to get approved as much as he does.
When the ATF interviews us they educate us and sometimes we also educate them during this application process. Going forward , we both learn something . I think its great.

[displayfireworks1]

I found my ATF license listing from 2012. In 2012 I do not want to list his exact personal information. In the entire State of Delaware at that time there was only one Type 54 . Located in Sussex County, City of Lewes, first name starts with D
Like I previous posted from 2012 to now I suspect less than 10.
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7190

[TABEJ FARMS]

Hello, I am new to the forum and the friend that "Firefighte5145" was asking questions for. I have made it to the interview process, which takes place on Wednesday, August 27th, at 9:30. Any suggestions, or just sit back and nod my head like a good applicant?> lol

[Salutecake]

Here's my 2 cents, I believe my first interview went like this: I am almost certain that the "Inspecter" as they like to be called was a bit older but new and perhaps, I might have been one of his first. With that background set:

My interview was long, and I had to provide information like a deed to my house I believe that might establish residency and a tracible track of business dealing. That was requested in a phone call before my interview. The interview went between being very informative to almost being a suspect in a murder investigation, you could feel the spotlights come on and the interrogation beginning but in the end it seemed like he walked away as a friend.

My first interview was a good 3 hours; I think he went over everything that a new Inspector was told to do. 2 or 3 renewals ago that started at least with me doing the renewal process live online. That took 4 hours, lol. My last one, just recently happened at my mag and they inspected the mag and did my renewal interview, but that was mostly the mag inspection.

My bottom line is basically answer the questions yes or no don't elaborate unless you must and don't ask any questions. I'm sure you will probably have questions and if you need answers, you can always call the person that interviewed you, and there are also places in the ATF you can call.

Last, when you get your license, probably 6 weeks or so don't sign it -- Depending on where and how you purchase your 1.3 products, the retail place will need a copy but they want you to sign it in person. So, make some non-signed copies and don't sign the original.
I hope this helps a bit, good luck and let us know how it went!!!

[BMoore]

My first interview was kind of like that as well. Probably 3 hours and constant shift in vibes between informative, friendly conversation and psychological profiling. The guy knew his stuff. I had actually met him before at a Q&A at my distributor so he was familiar with the hobbyist aspect. In the end all went well and ended in friendly chit chat. Even though it’s a shall issue license they still have a duty to figure out what they are dealing with and some of it might be a test to see how well you understand the rules. I’d say trying to coerce someone to withdraw their application to gauge their level of knowledge and commitment to the process is pushing it too far, but no doubt it does happen.

[displayfireworks1]

The interview is Wednesday. This should be interesting. It is not like a job interview , its more of a learning event. On my ATF/DVD package I go line by line what all is covered. Just listen and learn something. Some topics are storage, theft, transfer if needed to another license holder, recording keep etc. Keep us posted how it goes. Be sure to have a table cleared so you both can sit and place documents , laptop etc.

[TABEJ FARMS]

Well Fellas, I received my license yesterday in the mail. I sent my application in on July 14 and received my license on September 1st. I truly appreciate all the suggestions and assistance that everyone has provided. It made a difference!

[displayfireworks1]

Well, there it is, congratulations. Thanks for sharing the journey with us. We can now add the State of Delaware to the list of those hobbyist applicants pursing an ATF license.
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[Salutecake]

Great! and Thanks for letting us know!