Doing fireworks for profit

[PyroFL]

There seems to be some confusion about doing fireworks for profit, donations and getting money from doing a show or maybe the law has changed?

I know on this forum its widely said you CAN NOT do fireworks for profit without a 54. Even in my shooter class they said "You shouldn't do it".

My thought why they said "You shouldn't do it" was you needed your 54. I never asked why it shouldn't be done to make it clear. Key word "Shouldn't" not "can't" because of the law. "Shouldn't" could of been an opinion not law.

Helping a friend that's a LEO that lives in a HOA with all there requirements and paperwork he needs for his HOA to fund the firework show this year he contacted ATF and the local fire marshal office.

After I read all his emails correspondence with ATF I typed up his last email to make 100% sure he wasn't risking his job as a LEO and could possible face fines or even jail time.

Was a little shocked with the answer.

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Email from ATF requesting clarification below (emails before this is just chitchat questions and answers) the real meat is below:

ATF answer to needing a 54 as a induvial or LLC for profit:

You would not need a license or permit if you are using (even for profit) consumer fireworks or article pyrotechnics that meet the definitions under 27 CFR 555.11 and the exemption under 27 CFR 555.141(a)(7).

Email I had him send ATF:

Thank you for the follow up information that’s helped me a lot.

I would like to make sure am 100% clear what you have stated so we’re not to do anything outside the law.

From my understanding what you have said I do not need a 54 explosive license from ATF when using 1.4 and 1.4PRO fireworks for profit as an individual or a LLC?

ATF answer:

That is correct

.......

I found this to be VERY VERY interesting

So I ask, has the law changed or has this always been opinion's of what the law is?

[displayfireworks1]

The real problem with shooting fireworks for profit is transportation insurance and proper license to transport. It very expensive. Although people come up with ways around that also.
Over the years I have known of a few fireworks enthusiast that put on a display for their HOA community with donations. They are using my AP Education Certificate to purchase products. My suggestion is to keep a full accounting of what was collected and spent. Gasoline receipts , food purchased etc. Then if needed it can show documentation of no profit to anyone. Better yet have the HOA write the check directly to the distributor.
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A word of caution , be sure the person handling the funds is trustworthy. I have heard of a few who don’t always spend what is collected on the display and related expenses.
Further comment on this. I am now getting word , some smaller local display guys are now doing all their weddings , local sports event etc using Articles of Pyrotechnics to avoid the regulatory burden on the ATF products and still get the desired boom in the sky etc using AP.
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A problem that may be unique to Pennsylvania on a for profit display .All display companies must register with the PA Attorney General. You can’t register without having an ATF license even if you will use all Consumer Fireworks and/or AP products. They still want your ATF license numbers as part of the registration process.
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Here is the PA registration
https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/fireworks-display-registration/
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Why this language and question is on the application really makes me wonder who or what is behind it.
Does your business participate in the American Fireworks Standards Laboratory (AFSL) Product Evaluation and Certification Program for Professional Display Fireworks? *

[Salutecake]

Well my 2 cents, first of all each state most likely has theri own rules and regulations regarding commerce and non profit.

With AP and consumer fireworks you really have no transportation or storage concerns, but safety is a major concern.

My experience with the ATF, if it's not 1.3 they don't care about it.

Your PA comment Dave, about Display companes having to register with the Attorney General, well, All Display companies, if you are using all AP and comsumer you are not technically a "Display" company the term Display refers to 1.3 products. Only my opinion.

The biggest part is probably getting some kind of approval from your local fire company, fire companies usually have the big say, and also approval from your HOA or township, city and so on.

I do know of 2 guys in PA that shoot non profit shows, so they tell me, for church groups, fire dept and other non profit groups, with the idea that the group pays for the product and the insurance and I would imagine some type of small set up fee and what ever donations go back to the group. . Some of the bigger companies get on their case but in reality that is business that would never happen with a bigger company because of the expense and profit.

[topshelfpyro]

I didn't think it had anything to do with the ATF and a 54 as far as shooting consumer/AP products? I thought it had to do with DOT(transporting 1000# gross weight), liability and insurance, your local laws for a public "display" etc. A 54 only allows you to purchase/possess 1.3 at a federal level, it has nothing to do with state laws, county laws, DOT transportation laws. I know a fella in GA that does displays with AP/consumer and he got tagged from DOT I believe it was and a large fine(over 10k) if memory serves me. For consumer/AP I would suggest worrying about local/state Fl laws regarding public displays for profit. In Ga they have no distinction between 1.3 or 1.4 as far as a public display.

[BMoore]

As far as the AFT is concerned, a type 54 is for a user of regulated explosives and has no bearing on 1.4 or 1.4Pro whatsoever. I think the issues are going to be at the state and local level. A lot of display permit applications I've seen call for the lead shooter to be ATF licensed and meet various experience requirements. The advantage your friend has is that he is only shooting at one location so dealing with just one jurisdiction should make things easier to navigate. I think getting feedback from the state fire marshal as well as the local AHD in writing will go a long way in substantiating what is needed. They will certainly require a certain level of insurance coverage so you'll need to make sure you are meeting the requirements set forth by your insurance carrier as well. Crossing the line between hobby and business is always challenging. Good luck!

[PyroFL]

I didn't think it had anything to do with the ATF and a 54 as far as shooting consumer/AP products? I thought it had to do with DOT(transporting 1000# gross weight), liability and insurance, your local laws for a public "display" etc. A 54 only allows you to purchase/possess 1.3 at a federal level, it has nothing to do with state laws, county laws, DOT transportation laws. I know a fella in GA that does displays with AP/consumer and he got tagged from DOT I believe it was and a large fine(over 10k) if memory serves me. For consumer/AP I would suggest worrying about local/state FL laws regarding public displays for profit. In Ga they have no distinction between 1.3 or 1.4 as far as a public display.

Not worried at all just trying to help a pyro buddy with not getting fined or going to Jail.

As his HOA is cutting him a check for $9,000 to do the show he is covering all his bases to double, triple check every little thing. Plus his HOA being new to all this they are covering their butt's too with requesting everything in writing from the Fire Marshalls office and ATF.

Reason for my post, Personally I was just a little shocked as I had never dug deep into this as I've never done anything for profit and only taken in donations after everything has been paid for upfront by me. With Dave advising me years ago not to let them give me a check and to pay for everything upfront and that's the way we have done it for the past 7 years. I personally thought if you did anything for profit you had to have your 54.

We no longer do our our show at the HOA but we still do the same thing.

About the DOT, having a class A CDL I can tell you, you have to have a endorsement from the DOT on your DL, plus a mess of paperwork and the insurance to cover it. If I remember correctly its 3M coverage to drive down the road, but I could be wrong on the total. His not worried about traveling with it at all his crew is taking it across the street from the storage area/build area. As Dave said there are ways to be within the law without having to do all the extra extra.

Thanks for your feedback

[PyroFL]

As far as the AFT is concerned, a type 54 is for a user of regulated explosives and has no bearing on 1.4 or 1.4Pro whatsoever. I think the issues are going to be at the state and local level. A lot of display permit applications I've seen call for the lead shooter to be ATF licensed and meet various experience requirements. The advantage your friend has is that he is only shooting at one location so dealing with just one jurisdiction should make things easier to navigate. I think getting feedback from the state fire marshal as well as the local AHD in writing will go a long way in substantiating what is needed. They will certainly require a certain level of insurance coverage so you'll need to make sure you are meeting the requirements set forth by your insurance carrier as well. Crossing the line between hobby and business is always challenging. Good luck!

Agree

Goes back to what I've read and was told in class. My thought and reading on this forum was you can't do anything for profit if you don't have your 54 no matter what you use 1.4 upto 1.3. By taking money and a profit that makes you a business needing a 54 which makes sense.

I get your point and agree, just my impression I've had for over 10 years. Maybe most of everyone already knew this, but I sure didn't ... LOL