Show with a permit or not

[Pyro Nation]

Question, for all who have the ATF 54.

I normally due this show for a family together every June. On 50 ACRES of mostly open area. No one really around and don't get a permit for show. Been doing this one for 6 yrs now. Now, if I add 1.3 material into the show is the permit needed now or if not how do you keep a record to show the ATF the material was used at that show?

[displayfireworks1]

What you asking for is to how to lie to the ATF? I really do not think it is the job of the ATF to decide if you should have a permit or not for every single fireworks shell you shoot. The answer to your question is that you shot your fireworks on your own private property. Some communities particularly in rural areas do not have any laws at all pertaining to local fireworks displays, and sometimes that is the same as having a permit. I do not know if shooting fireworks without a permit is a federal violation or just a local or state requirement. Do not over think all this and try to cover all possible scenarios.
The ATF 1.3 license allows you to purchase and transport fireworks. It does not judge your competency to shoot them or give you permission to display them anywhere you feel like. It allows you to make a legal purchase of 1.3 fireworks and that may be all it does. Sometimes I shoot fireworks with just verbal permission, sometimes written permission and sometimes with no permission. As long as people do not complain you should not have a problem. But technically you should call your Local Township or city and ask them for a permit. But if you think they will say no, then you could ask it in a different way. You could ask if they have a local fireworks ordinance. If they say no and you shoot legal fireworks you can always say you checked if a permit was required and they said they have no ordinance in place for it. I am not a fireworks law expert but that is how I have approached it over the years.

[Pyro Nation]

The site I use we asked if we could shoot and they said no problem we ask every year and told since it is out in the boonies not to worry about a permit. Im not saying I want to lie to the ATF, but how do you prove to the ATF they were fired that day of the show if there was no permit. That is what I am asking.

[Pyro Nation]

I know we have to be accountable on the 1.3 material. So, if not being fired has to be back in the contingency storage. I just want to know so when the 3 yr period comes I have some way to document they were used. Like the show I did this month. There was a permit involved with that one. So, I have a document showing there was a show and the material was used.

[shellshocker]

Pyroliffic, You have asked a complicated question. I'll give you the answer as I was told by my ATF. Your 54 gives you permission to buy fireworks but not shoot them. If you read the PA state law it says very clearly that local jurisdictions have the authority to grant fireworks permits but they first must adopt a fireworks ordinance. Now legally if you shoot with out a permit you are in violation of state law. The ATF doesn't enforce state laws so the best thing you can do is have some type of documentation that you shot the fireworks. Unless they think you are up to something funny they aren't going to investigate you. If you don't have a permit your best documentation would be proof that you had the fire company there or at least a letter to the fire company. A call to 911 saying you will be shooting a show in case someone calls in is also another good idea. Just keep good, organized records for when they show up. I got the 911 tip from the company I shoot for. Every show we do we call about 10 minutes before we shoot. If you go to group shoots, keep a journal of the the dates, where it was and who held it. Most organized shoots will have some type of sign in sheet. Make sure you sign in. Keep in mind the ATF can reject your 54 for any reason. If they suspect your up to something funny you will not get renewed.

[Pyro Nation]

Thanks Shock. That is the point. I dont want them to think that. Why I am asking this question. I think I will see if I can get a letter from the fire chief. Saying They know there will be a show.

[shellshocker]

Don't request a letter, send them a letter. Invite them to the show and keep a copy for your file. Like Dave said, think outside the box. The less you request the better off you are.

[pyro76]

even though you have your type 54 in PA don't you need a permit where you're going to shoot in order to buy the fireworks?

[Pyro Nation]

Not the 1.3 u dont, but for the consumer fireworks in the state yes

[fireworksman74]

the having a site permit to purchase 1.3 product is often at the dealer disgression. Im not saying that that is the law its just what ive observed. However its always a good idea to get a permit anyway to cover yourself. in case you get a gung ho police officer that wants to ruin your festivities. One final thing weither you obtain a permit or not all state and fed safety laws need to be followed,especially the distance rule!

[Palermitano2]

I wish I had these problems....lol

[DLux3888]

This was something I was curious about. In Dave's video, the gentleman that he interviewed said that the ATF always needed proof the the fireworks were used. But sometimes that's difficult to do because you don't necessarily need a permit to shoot the fireworks. Especially if it's on the 4th of July or Memorial Day.

I was wondering. Would a written letter of consent from the owner of the property where the fireworks were shot suffice?

[Pyro Nation]

See Exactly my point Dlux. That is what the whole thread was suppose to be about. Not trying to cheat the ATF as someone was leading to.

[fireworksman74]

i agree with you 100% pyroliffic but when it comes to 1.3 product you should extra cover your ass. A letter from the property owner should be enough! But what if one of the higher up questions it, then what? then you run the risk of losing all the product you spent your hard earned money on. At best this Topic is a grey area,its definately left to interpretation. But like i said before Go to the town and get a permit, it may be over kill but it may just keep you clean.

[fireworksman74]

This was something I was curious about. In Dave's video, the gentleman that he interviewed said that the ATF always needed proof the the fireworks were used. But sometimes that's difficult to do because you don't necessarily need a permit to shoot the fireworks. Especially if it's on the 4th of July or Memorial Day.

I was wondering. Would a written letter of consent from the owner of the property where the fireworks were shot suffice? Im just going to answer this to the question about the ATF agent wanting proof,He was exactly right when it comes time to renew your 54/ or if you get audited they will ask for all your receipts and paper work. And you are gunna want all your ducks in a row.The ATF agent already know what you purchased. and will ask you for proof of storage or proof of discharge. Some of the agents are sticklers on this and wont renew or even will revoke your type 54. Im just looking out for yall cuz i dont want any safety concious pyro getting caught up in a mess.

[PyroMike79]

This is probably a dumb idea as I have little knowledge of the type 54. If proof of discharge is the sticking point, could you simply take pictures of your stock pre and post fire? If necessary have somebody take the pictures with you next to the fireworks so there is no doubt it is your stock. Is that a stupid idea??

[jknepp1954]

Question, for all who have the ATF 54.

I normally due this show for a family together every June. On 50 ACRES of mostly open area. No one really around and don't get a permit for show. Been doing this one for 6 yrs now. Now, if I add 1.3 material into the show is the permit needed now or if not how do you keep a record to show the ATF the material was used at that show?
Long story short - 1.4g only or mixed 1.4 and 1.3 - permit is absolutely necessary in PA.
yeah ya could have your show and no trouble - but why risk it?
if the twp or municipality tells you they don't have an ordinance and just go ahead and shoot them, just to cover your butt, see if you can get them to write that statement onto their letterhead - that will cover you. We did that one time, and they did - real slick! LOL
Will the ATF ask to see a permit for a show? They might - so make sure you have your permit. In 8 years of show biz - they never asked us - but it only takes one time of asking and not having that could mess you up.
Joyce

[DLux3888]

Ya, I figured if I don't need to get a permit, I would still like some sort of proof that I shot the product. So an idea of mine was to do what jknepp1954 said above. I would just a letter of approval from the municipality. Nothing formal or fancy. Just a sentence or two written on one of their letterheads with dates and stuff. Just to be on the safe side.

[Pyro Nation]

Thanks for all the answers. I called the AHJ today and they are going to right a letter. So, I will have one in hand. First yr with the 1.3 so just want to have everything covered.

[jknepp1954]

Thanks for all the answers. I called the AHJ today and they are going to right a letter. So, I will have one in hand. First yr with the 1.3 so just want to have everything covered.
Good for you pyroliffic! You seem like a guy who wants to do things the right way - you are def on the right track! :)
Joyce

[Pyro Nation]

Thanks Joyce. I am one to do things on the up and up. Why I asked this question since this is the first yr I have the Type 54 and want to make sure I have it for a long time

[pyro76]

I'm in the same boat as you pyroliffic. The only thing I had was about the purchasing but like someone said it's at the dealer disgression so I guess you need to have the permit before you purchase